>> ZOË ROOT: This quarter our webinar is entitled The Face of Gideon: A Conversation
with Public Defenders and Former Clients.
As you may know, this past Sunday, March 18th marked the 55th anniversary of Gideon v. Wainwright,
the landmark U.S. Supreme Court case that we can credit for creating the right to a
public defender in state level cases . The anniversary presents us an opportunity
to reflect on what Gideon means, the impact of public defenders on the lives of their
clients, and what improvements need to be made in order for the power of the Gideon
decision to really be fully realized.
So, on your screen now, you can see the agenda for today's webinar.
In addition to hearing from me, you'll hear from Genevieve Citrin Ray, Antione Tuckson,
and Patrice James.
From 1:00 to 1:15, the phase we're in right now, we'll have an overview of the Gideon
decision, and Genevieve will tell us more about The Right to Counsel campaign.
From 1:15 to 1:45, we'll have a guided discussion panel, during which the panelists will engage
in a candid conversation about how the Gideon decision shaped the criminal justice experiences
of accused people and the advocates who defend them.
And then finally, from 1:45 to 2:00, we'll have a Question and Answer period, during
which you as our listeners will have an opportunity to ask questions of the panelists.
So, with no further ado, we'll get into a discussion of the Gideon case.
Next slide, please, Cameron.
Gideon v. Wainwright was the landmark 1963 United States Supreme Court case, in which
the court unanimously ruled that states are required under the Sixth Amendment to the
U.S. constitution to provide attorneys to people accused of crimes who are unable to
afford private lawyers.
The case extended the constitutional right to counsel, which we all know, to the states.
So, how did we get here?
Clarence Earl Gideon was arrested in Florida in 1961 for burglary.
Mr. Gideon requested an attorney be assigned to him when he appeared in front of a judge,
but his request was denied.
As a result, he was forced to act as his own counsel at trial and conduct his own defense.
He emphasized his innocence in the case, but at the conclusion of the trial, the jury returned
a guilty verdict.
At the time, there was actually nothing technically illegal about what happened.
Under Betts v. Brady, states were not required to assign court appointed attorneys in non
capital cases unless special circumstances were present.
But Clarence Earl Gideon set out to change all that.
From a cell in Florida state prison, writing in pencil on prison stationary, Gideon appealed
to the United States Supreme Court, filing a suit against the secretary of the Florida
Department of Corrections, Louis L. Wainwright.
Gideon argued in his appeal that he had been denied counsel, and therefore his Sixth Amendment
rights, as applied by the 14th amendment, had been violated.
On March 18th, 1963, the Supreme Court decision was announced unanimously in favor of Gideon.
Gideon v. Wainwright overruled Betts v. Brady, holding that the assistance of counsel, if
desired by a defendant who could not afford to hire counsel, was a fundamental right under
the U.S. Constitution.
That right was binding on the states, and essential for a fair trial and due process
of law, regardless of the circumstances of the case.
The decision actually did not directly result in Gideon being freed; instead, he received
a new trial with the appointment of defense counsel at the government's expense.
During the new trial, Gideon's lawyer picked apart the testimony of the eyewitness and
was able to track down a witness, through investigation, that further discredited the
eyewitness.
The jury acquitted Gideon after one hour of deliberation.
Gideon died of cancer on January 18th, 1972, at the age of 61.
Gideon's headstone in Missouri is inscribed with a quote from a letter that Gideon wrote
in prison.
It says, each era finds an improvement in law for the benefit of mankind.
After Gideon's case, about 2,000 individuals who had been convicted were freed in Florida
alone as a result of the Gideon decision.
The Gideon decision created and then ultimately expanded the need for public defenders, forever
changing the representation of indigent defendants.
But despite ongoing expansion, the public defender system in the United States is in
crisis.
In many cases, accused individuals are asked to waive the appointment of counsel.
In other cases, attorneys don't get assigned until after important decisions have been
made.
In most criminal cases, the accused is brought before a judicial officer who decides whether
or not he or she will be released, held on bail, or held without bail.
In many jurisdictions across the country, poor people are not provided the assistance
of counsel at that first appearance when the bail determination is being made.
Forced to negotiate with prosecutors and judges for their own liberty, many people end up
pleading guilty without the advice of a lawyer.
Of those who do not plead guilty, many are held in jail and must wait for days or even
weeks for an attorney to be assigned in their case.
Then we have the situation in courts where public defenders are appointed at first appearance.
That attorney is generally under severe time constraints and pressure to resolve cases,
and accordingly has limited time and resources to devote to providing competent counsel.
As a result, defenders are often unable to access cases to assess cases and properly
advise their clients or represent their interests.
I know from my perspective before joining the Justice Programs Office, I practiced as
a public defender at the Bronx Defenders, which is luckily one of the best and most
well resourced offices in the country.
The office is holistic and sees every client as a human first.
Holistic defense means that the client is seen as a whole person, not just a criminal
case.
The office seeks to provide clients with all services they need for the issues that led
to and result from involvement in the criminal justice system, including representation and
advice from family court lawyers, immigration lawyers, and housing court attorneys.
If needed, clients can be assigned a social worker, an investigator, and client advocate.
But despite the incredible holistic resources of that office, I often felt overwhelmed by
my caseload, and like I simply did not have enough time to give each client the defense
they deserved.
There was tremendous systemic pressure from judges and court personnel to move cases along
quickly, to advise clients to plead guilty, and to ignore their humanity.
When public defenders have so many cases that they are forced to choose between the depth
of the representation they can provide and the number of clients that they are able to
see, that are able to see the judge in a given arraignment shift, justice is not served.
That is not the spirit of Gideon.
In many parts of the country, public defenders are working hard daily in spite of these competing
pressures.
The Right to Counsel National Campaign exists to raise awareness about their critical role
and to change the way the public understands the constitutional right to an attorney in
criminal cases.
Now, we have Genevieve Citrin Ray here to talk us through all about The Right to Counsel
National Campaign.
>> GENEVIEVE CITRIN RAY: Thank you, Zoë.
Thanks, everybody, for joining us here today.
Hold on.
Looks like there's a little bit of feedback.
All right.
Thank you.
So, thanks again, to everybody for joining us today.
For those of you who may not know, I also came from a background of public defense,
although unlike Zoë, I was not an attorney.
I was an investigator for the Public Defender Service here in D.C., and really kind of saw
firsthand some of the challenges and the rewards of effective assistance of counsel.
Like Zoë mentioned, The Right to Counsel National Campaign, or R2C as we like to call
it, seeks to raise awareness about the constitutional right to counsel and the importance of effective
public defense delivery systems.
R2C officially launched in 2015, recognizing the variance across public defense systems
and the need to raise awareness about the constitutional right, the challenged they
face, and to highlight the power of effective representation.
R2C is part of a cooperative agreement funded by the U.S. Department of Justice's Bureau
of Justice Assistance.
The goals of R2C are to raise public awareness nationally of the importance of providing
skilled public defense services to criminal defendants who cannot afford a lawyer, to
spearhead broad based initiatives by policymakers in multiple sectors, both within and outside
of the criminal justice system to take appropriate action, and to develop a strategic vision
of the role of public defense, policymakers and criminal justice leaders integrate in
the operational conduct and planning of the functions of their respective agencies.
R2C is comprised of a multidisciplinary group of consortium members, including defenders,
prosecutors, law enforcement, judges, legislators, funders, community advocates, impacted community
members, court personnel, policymakers, corrections employees, and researchers.
To make sustainable and comprehensive change, every system actor must play an active role
in ensuring The right to counsel and effective public defense delivery systems.
55 years have passed since the landmark decision of Gideon, yet the promise of Gideon is yet
to be reached.
Gideon is only achieved when public defense providers have the time, resources, experience,
and compassion to devote to each person accused of a crime who faces a loss of liberty.
Only then can there be effective defense representation.
And when we say effective representation, this is exactly what we are talking about.
So that leads us to our webinar today.
Instead of focusing on what is not happening, we want to show you the power of what effective
representation is.
We hope to shed light on the true power of Gideon and inspire everyone to keep advocating
for a fully funded and resourced public defense system that allows all individuals charged
with a crime to receive effective representation as they deserve, and to continue to advocate
for criminal justice system that treats everyone with dignity and respect.
>> ZOË ROOT: Thanks, Genevieve.
So now it's time for our moderated discussion, where our panelists will discuss how the Gideon
decision shaped the criminal justice experience of accused people and the advocates who defend
them.
Genevieve will join the panel, both in her capacity as the project director of The Right
to Counsel National Campaign and also hearken on her experience as an investigator for the
Public Defender Service here in D.C.
So, I'll start with Patrice "Amber" James, who we are fortunate enough to have with us
here today.
Patrice is a career public defender, and she is also currently the director of external
relations at Still She Rises.
Patrice, what made you want to become a public defender?
>> PATRICE JAMES: I decided to be well, first of all, hello, everyone.
Thank you so much for having me.
I decided to become a public defender because of having lived through a family member get
arrested, charged with a crime, and ultimately serve a five year prison sentence.
And so I can remember going to visit this person in jail, or in prison during the course
of the five years, and that was just very formative for me, going to the visiting room,
looking around, and seeing a lot of people who looked like me, a lot of black families
in the visiting room, and that was when I realized that there was something wrong with
our system.
And so I decided to go to law school and become a public defender to fight against the system
that is over incarcerating people of color.
>> ZOË ROOT: Thanks so much for sharing that with us, Patrice.
We are so lucky to have both of your personal and professional perspective added to the
pool of dedicated public defenders.
We are also lucky to have Antione Tuckson with us here today.
Antione is a lifelong resident of the D.C. metropolitan area, valedictorian of his high
school, and earned a bachelor's degree in criminal justice.
Antione, as you know, part of our mission at the right to counsel national campaign
is to recognize each person whose life has been impacted by the criminal justice system
as a person first.
As impactful as that experience no doubt was for you, it was just one chapter in a much
longer book of the story of your life.
So please tell the listeners about you, about your life, and about what you're up to now.
>> ANTIONE TUCKSON: Good afternoon, everybody.
Thank you all for joining.
I'm a 30 year old African American male.
I've been living in Washington, D.C. my entire life, and I currently am a network administrator
and cyber security analyst for multiple companies, which includes the Federal Government and
IBM, just to name a few.
I strongly believe in the justice system.
I strongly believe in the spirit of the ruling behind Gideon, and I want to make sure that
I can do whatever I can to kind of give my experiences when it comes to having being
represented effectively.
That's just who I am.
>> ZOË ROOT: Thank you, Antione.
And we'll come back to you in a little bit to hear more about what those experiences
were like for you.
Before we do, I want to bring it back to Patrice.
Patrice, you practiced in two jurisdictions, Tulsa and the Bronx.
How does the place you were practicing affect your role as a public defender?
Are there differences in the way that the importance of assigned counsel is appreciated?
>> PATRICE JAMES: Absolutely.
I think as you were saying in the beginning, there are certainly challenges that vary based
on the jurisdiction that you are in.
So right in New York City in the Bronx where I practice, attorneys, public defenders were
assigned to clients within 24 hours of arrest.
And I think it's about as good as you're going to get when it comes to having assigned counsel.
But where I am currently in Tulsa, public defenders are assigned approximately seven
to eight days after arrest.
And they are not assigned before there is a determination of bail.
And so that is something that we are certainly not used to, something that we have been talking
about a lot both internally and externally, and really are pushing for arrest to arraignment
times to be moved up, and for a counsel to be assigned earlier, when there is the first
initial appearance and charges are read, and bail is determined, there's no one there to
stand on behalf of the client, the person that's incarcerated.
And that's a problem.
In Tulsa, there is no bail hearing unless an attorney a defense counsel files a motion.
So a lot of times, you have people that are sitting in jail who are sitting in jail based
off of a schedule amount, but has never had anyone fight or argue the bail terms or conditions,
and that is certainly a problem and something we did not see in Tulsa, I'm sorry, in the
Bronx.
>> ZOË ROOT: And, Patrice, obviously many of the people on this webinar now appreciate
why it's so important that someone have someone there to represent them when the bail determine
nation is being made, but what's the counterargument that you're hearing in response when your
office pushes for the opportunity to be represented at the bail hearing?
>> PATRICE JAMES: Well, there's not necessarily, really, the pushback is that bail is based,
is set based off of the schedule, and it's the same for everyone, and everyone has the
opportunity to post the bond, and there's no sort of bias, because it says assault,
assault is a $10,000 bond, and it's 10,000 for everyone.
Some folks really don't understand what the problem is.
And obviously, or not obviously, the problem is the purpose of bail is purely to secure
someone's return to court, and it shouldn't be based on a dollar amount, the numbers show
that's actually not what having money on the line is not the single most determination
of when a person is going to come back to court.
But what the issue is in Tulsa is really just a matter of capacity of the courthouse and
the way it's currently set up and structured.
There's just not a place to have a bail hearing the way the procedure works here in Tulsa.
So what we have done as an office is the minute that we pick up a client, we automatically
go through the courthouse and file a hearing, a motion to get a hearing in front of the
judge, and that's worked out pretty well.
It's resulted in approximately 72% of our clients having either bond being reduced or
clients being released on their own recognizance, which is great.
But really, the pushback is just, well, you go to a bondsman, and the bondsman is only
going to charge you 10%, so I really don't see what the problem is.
>> ZOË ROOT: Wow.
Well, those are some really impressive results.
Patrice, you referenced your office, and I know your office is Still She Rises.
Can you tell our listeners a little bit about Still She Rises and how it connects to the
Gideon decision?
>> PATRICE JAMES: Sure.
Still She Rises is the first holistic public defender office in the country that's dedicated
to exclusively representing mothers in the criminal justice system.
So, Oklahoma is the number one incarcerator of women, the highest incarceration rate of
women,obviously, and with most statistics, black women, women of color being disproportionately
impacted by those statistics.
We believe that Gideon is being realized here because we pride ourselves on being very zealous
lawyers, because we have sort of restrictions around the demographic that we accept as clients,
we have lower case loads, which allows us to fight really hard, both for our individual
clients, but for also the systemic issues.
Like I mentioned, the right to having the bail hearing, and the delay between arrest
and arraignment here in Tulsa are all things that we're working on.
Additionally, what is new to us coming down from New York City is that in Oklahoma, it
is written into the Oklahoma law, it is law here and written into statute that if you
bail out, so if your bond is $10,000 and you go to a bondsman, your family goes to a bondsman
with $1,000 and they bond their loved one out, you get bonded out, you then have lost
your right to your public defender, and you are presumed to be able to afford a lawyer.
So, we are able to fill in the gaps, because if our clients bond out, or if there's a mother
who needs a lawyer, we represent those women free of charge.
So our clients, they bond out, they still have us as lawyers.
So, Gideon being realized, is it is Gideon holding true here in Tulsa?
I would say no, because if you're able to get $500 together and bail yourself out of
jail, you now need to come up with maybe 5,000 more dollars to hire a lawyer.
I have actually watched individuals have handcuffs placed on them and threatened to go to jail
because they come to court without a lawyer, and we call this a criminal justice system,
but how is that just?
>> ZOË ROOT: So well said.
Thank you so much, Patrice.
I'd like to turn it back over to Antione.
Antione, you have shared with me that you were represented by a few different public
defenders.
Tell us about those experiences and how your perspective on public defense changed after
being assigned to Jason Downes at a well resourced public defender office here in D.C.
>> ANTIONE TUCKSON: Just a brief background on my particular situation.
Jason Downes, a former public defender in the Washington, D.C. office, represented me
in, was it 2009, for a criminal case I had caught, and we went to trial.
So he represented me from beginning to the end.
We, through the motions hearing, the trials, we actually had three trials because we had
two hung juries, and I was taken to trial a third time where I was convicted.
Eventually, my conviction was overturned by the appellate court, and I was in prison during
that entire phase up to the appellate court over the reverse of my conviction in 2013.
And the definition that Genevieve, who was actually the investigator for my case, gives
about the definition for effective representation, it's spot on.
Time, resources, experience, and compassion.
All of those qualities and characteristics were seen in Jason's work.
It was seen in the work provided by Genevieve.
Their ability to manage the time, their ability to utilize the resources that they had to
their advantage.
Most people that I knew of didn't have investigators working on their criminal cases, and I happened
to be blessed to be able to have that, that particular resource at my disposal.
The compassion that Jason showed, in seeing me as a human being as a person, and not as
a statistic or a number.
One of the biggest issues that we see here in D.C. is the caseload.
I mean, there's just too many cases being pushed onto public defenders, and, you know,
when you have so much going on, that the system is just so messed up, that you have so much
going on, it's hard to really weave through your case loads, weave through the expectations
or the deadlines and whatnot.
And Jason, in my particular case, managed to figure out a way to actually weave through
it.
And so he was very, very effective representing me.
He was very he actually changed my whole perspective on not just the criminal justice system, but
just on my life.
He gave me a reason to actually want to be successful.
He gave me a reason to want to, you know, not help with the recidivism rate that we
see, especially here in the Washington, D.C. area.
So, pretty much him seeing me as a person, and not just seeing me as a person, but fighting
for me and representing me in the court system changed me and I was able to actually believe
that we actually can have effective representation in this system.
>> ZOË ROOT: Wow.
What a powerful experience and so well put, Antione.
It strikes me that I'm so glad that you had Jason there fighting for you.
But we shouldn't be at a point where it takes the heroicism of people that go above and
beyond.
The entire system should be ensuring that there are Jasons everywhere for Antione everywhere.
That being said, you did mention that as part of your case, you were assigned both an attorney
and an investigator, Genevieve.
Tell us about the impact of having both a lawyer and an investigator working on your
behalf.
>> ANTIONE TUCKSON: Oh, it completely changes the game in terms of your ability to actually
fight.
Too many times, we have people who and not everybody who gets arrested is innocent.
A lot of times, it's really not about guilt or innocence.
And again, this is me speaking from the perspective of individuals who are incarcerated versus
me being where I am or who I am today.
A lot of the times, the arguments that we have as defendants is, okay, yeah, I may have
committed this particular crime.
I'm not talking about me, but I may have committed this particular crime, but how they went about
arresting me, or how law enforcement went about charging me somewhere along the line,
something had to be illegal.
Somewhere along the line my constitutional rights had to have been violated
And so a lot of times what we are arguing for or pushing for is for those particular
accusations or allegations of a violation of our constitutional rights to be investigated.
And in order for that to happen, well, you have to have somebody who not just an attorney,
but the attorney has to have an investigator to assist them.
And so by me having an investigator assigned to my case, it changed the whole game.
It changed you know, it gave Jason the ability to not just focus on my case, but to focus
on other people's cases and to, you know, manage his time accordingly.
So, you know, for me having Genevieve being there to do the investigation on my case,
it gave me a fighting chance.
>> ZOË ROOT: Absolutely.
And we have someone else here who is speaking to that experience.
So, Genevieve, tell us about the experience and the connection you see between the Gideon
decision and the role of investigators and other non attorney staff and advocates in
public defender offices.
>> GENEVIEVE CITRIN RAY: Thank you so much.
Thanks, Antione, for those kind words.
And I must just say that in my new role doing policy work, it is really one of my highlights
has been reconnecting with Antione over these past couple of months and just, you know,
chatting and seeing how well you are doing now is just really an honor.
And, yeah, I think, you know, Antione, you nailed it, and so did Zoë, when you mentioned
that Gideon is beyond just the attorney in a courtroom.
There are so many things that go into preparing for court or having the information, to you
know, to stand up and understand both the case and the person, and recognize that the
case isn't the person, the person isn't the case, and, you know, attorneys, their skills
are different than going out and collecting all the information and being out there investigating
in the field, and without having individuals with the time and the skill set to devote
to both the courtroom and, you know, the litigation of cases on behalf of their clients, and without
having people going out and investigating the cases and learning more about different
players and who your client actually is, there is no way that Gideon can be fulfilled with
only one of those two things.
And, like I said, I think so many times, Gideon is just seen as the person in the courtroom,
but there are a lot of other players or support staff.
There's law clerks, there's social workers that all really play critical roles into providing
effective representation.
>> ZOË ROOT: Great.
Thanks, Genevieve.
It's so true, it really does take a village, and public defense is not only about attorneys,
and it's not only about what happens in the courtroom.
With that, I'll turn it over to Patrice for one last question.
Patrice, in what ways do you think the Gideon decision is alive, and what needs to change
for it to be more completely fulfilled?
>> PATRICE JAMES: I think it's alive, and I'm reminded of it being alive when I have
opportunities like this to talk about the work and there's space to talk about the work.
I'm reminded when I talk to my public defender friends across the country and listen to their
stories about their fights.
When I see my colleagues, at my conferences and surrounded by public defenders that are
dedicated, that are constantly figuring out how to navigate the systems, how to be better
for their clients.
When I listen to clients' stories.
I do think that there is evidence that Gideon is alive in many places, and that many people
are trying to make sure that it stays alive But in terms of where you know, obviously,
New York City where I grew up, as I like to say where I grew up in public defense, is
a really well resourced place.
Coming to Tulsa, though, it really opened my eyes, and of course I've heard stories
and I know folks that practice in the south and know their challenges are very different
than what we faced in New York City.
Coming to Tulsa has definitely shown me firsthand the challenges that smaller jurisdictions
and rural cities and rural counties, the challenges that they are facing.
Some of these places are not well resourced.
You know, salaries are extremely low.
The ability to hire experts, the ability to retain people in some of these offices is
really hard.
And so why I am so grateful and thankful to all of the folks and organizations that are
working in the major cities, we really have to look at some of these southern states,
some of these more rural counties and see what's happening, because there are people
there that are in need of help.
There are public defender offices that are really well intentioned and want to provide
strong advocacy for their clients, but just don't have the resources or means to do so.
And so while I think it's great that we keep focusing on some of the major cities, we really
have to focus on some of these smaller places, because people are going to prison, they're
going to prison for a long time.
It's not uncommon here in Tulsa to hear people getting life sentences, or going to prison
for 30 and 40 years.
That actually feels kind of common to me at this point and I've only been here a year
and a half.
So, there's a lot of work to do, but we should also consider focusing some, in some of the
more rural places.
>> ZOË ROOT: Yes.
That's such an excellent point, Patrice.
One conversation we've been having over here at the Justice Programs Office a lot is the
issue of training and access to training.
I know I've talked to Genevieve about her experiences of training as an investigator.
What was that like for you and what challenges were there, Genevieve?
>> GENEVIEVE CITRIN RAY: Thank you, Zoë Yeah.
So, it's true.
I was really lucky to be at an office where we had, you know, a lot of resources, which
is very unusual, and I quickly learned how unusual it was.
It's so the time pressure I don't think I don't know how to even solve that.
There's just it's such a time suck and you're so devoted to each and every case, that it
really is hard to pull yourself away and say, hey, actually, I need to go attend this training.
I need to make sure that I am up to speed on all of these, you know, newer things coming
in, but it's also it really is so important and so critical.
And so, I think when we talk about time for cases, it's something that can't be overlooked
and there really needs to be, you know, time to attend training and to get the experience
and to make sure that everybody from non attorneys to attorneys are, you know, aware of the latest
research and the latest trends, that they're really able to kind of take advantage of that,
because through that, you will be able to, you know, even be a better advocate for your
clients.
But it is really hard in the day to day to see that and to kind of step aside for a little
bit to go and get that training, but it's definitely something that needs to be talked
about and needs to be built in.
>> ZOË ROOT: Yeah, that's such an important perspective.
You know, in offices where in jurisdictions where training is incredibly important, making
the time to attend those trainings when they're available.
Patrice, what is it like in more rural jurisdictions like Tulsa?
Are there trainings available to public defenders?
>> PATRICE JAMES: Hello?
Okay.
Yeah.
So, since we have been here since I have been here, I have not heard of very many trainings.
And I don't believe that the public defenders office has any sort of ongoing or robust training
program.
And that's something that we certainly have been talking about.
And I believe this spring, we are going to partner with the public defender office and
actually host a training, both for our lawyers and the lawyers of the Public Defender's Office
here in Tulsa, because training is such an issue.
I mean, time is, of course, one thing, but again, it comes down to resources.
Some of these offices barely have the resources to pay their attorneys and their staff, sort
of, livable wages.
Let alone sending attorneys to trainings or paying to bring trainers into their offices.
That's a real problem.
It's a real problem when you have attorneys that are coming fresh out of law school or
have only been practicing for a year or two, and now we're handling cases where people
are facing upwards of life in prison.
That is something that we are seeing here, and so, again, like you have been saying all
along, you know, is Gideon actually coming to fruition in places like this when that
is when these are the conditions that attorneys are working under, and clients are being represented
under.
So, you know, we are, again, pretty lucky that we are able to send our attorneys to
the national trainings, and we are able to bring in training here, bring us training
here to Tulsa, but we aren't uniquely situated.
And so it's certainly an issue and one that we are navigating here.
>> ZOË ROOT: Thank you, Patrice.
Is that government funding with which you're able to send your attorneys and advocates
to trainings, or is it other funding?
>> PATRICE JAMES: Right.
So, Still She Rises is 100% privately funded through various grants with our main grantor
being the George Kaiser Family Foundation, which allows us to operate and provide a certain
level and standard of practice.
But, you know, I am not sure how much of the Public Defenders Office, what percent of their
budget comes from the state.
I'm sure it's all completely state funded, but one of the things, fines and fees are
a big issue here in Tulsa.
You know, our clients walk away owing thousands of dollars of fines to the court systems here,
and, you know, the D.A.'s office, they try to justify the amount of fines and fees that
they ask for per case by saying, well, you know, the state only gives us 40% of our budget,
and so I have to now make up 60% of my budget, and how am I going to do that?
How do I do that?
On the backs of your clients.
One interesting thing is we represent mothers that live in north Tulsa, which is the historically
black community in Tulsa, and also in North Tulsa, two of the poorest ZIP codes in the
city of Tulsa are in North Tulsa, and two of our main ZIP codes where we represent mothers.
Recently, there was a study done that showed the two poorest ZIP codes in Tulsa actually
pay the most money in fines and fees to the courthouse.
So you have the poorest people in the city paying the most money to the court systems,
which includes the public defender, which includes the D.A.'s office.
So they are literally supporting the office, these offices.
And that's a problem.
Clients literally pay for everything.
Clients pay for $25 to fill out pauper's affidavit, which will then allow the judge to determine
if they qualify for a public defender.
If they file a motion, there's a cost associated to that.
There's limited money for experts through the courts.
So it is you know, everyone is working on minimal budget, but it's actually our clients
that are suffering the most and are actually paying for everything.
So there's no shortage of struggle or problems here in Tulsa.
>> ZOË ROOT: Yeah, that much is clear.
Thank goodness for the external private funding that's available.
It's a reminder that foundations can play such a key role in subsidizing the public
defense system until we're able to have it be up to snuff with what the Gideon decision
promised.
Well, with that, it is now 1:48, so we can transition over to our Question and Answer
period, in which the listeners can type in their questions in the question and answer
box.
You can direct it either directly to the host or to all the panelists.
And we will read out the questions and have our panelists answer them.
So, Antione, we got a question for you asking if there was one thing that the listeners
could take away with them today, or one thing that you would like them to know about you,
what would it be?
>> ANTIONE TUCKSON: Give me a few seconds.
Let me think about that one.
>> ZOË ROOT: No worries.
Take your time.
We have it.
>> ANTIONE TUCKSON: Okay.
I'm ready.
>> ZOË ROOT: Great.
Go for it.
>> ANTIONE TUCKSON: We all make choices in life, and for every choice that we make, there's
always going to be a consequence.
A consequence can be good, consequence could be bad.
The biggest thing for me is learning to take responsibility, and what I mean by that is
taking responsibility for the choices that we make as individuals and being willing to
accept or deal with the consequences that follow.
And that doesn't even necessarily mean committing a crime or anything, but just having a sense
and a duty of being responsible to yourself and to those who are around you.
Because when you do make choices, when you do make decisions, they don't just affect
you.
I'm grateful for everybody who joins the Public Defender's Office, because a lot of them already
go in knowing that the system is stacked against them, and yet they still go in, they still
work, as we have with some of the panelists who work in the Public Defender's Office,
or previously worked in and continue to do the work of it.
So, I'm grateful for everybody who goes into the situations and tries to make a change.
But for me, it's also about being responsible and taking responsibility for your actions.
If I can leave you all with anything, it's that.
We should all be willing to take responsibility for our actions and the consequences that
follow.
>> ZOË ROOT: Thank you, Antione.
As a former public defender, I think I have the permission to say that on behalf of many
public defenders, I think a lot of public defenders get involved in the work because
it's really all about the clients, and so while the odds are stacked against public
defenders when they enter the courtroom, they are so much more stacked against the clients
themselves, and that is why so many public defenders do the work, because of the ways
that the criminal justice system makes it very hard for people who are accused to actually
achieve justice.
All right.
I think we have time for one more question, if someone wants to type it in.
We will wait for that.
All right.
Well, it looks like we have not received any other questions.
So, in absence of that, I'll just open it up to Patrice and Antione, do you have any
closing words or anything you'd like to share with our listeners?
>> PATRICE JAMES: I think it's just the people that are engaged in the fight and are interested
in the fight, keep the fight alive.
It's extremely important and powerful that we keep sharing our clients' stories and telling
people what is happening to people.
You turn on the news, you turn on the TV, it's such a one sided story that is given
about our legal system, and it's not showing just how the legal system is destroying people's
lives and destroying communities, especially our most vulnerable people and our most vulnerable
communities.
And we have to keep fighting against the system.
Because people deserve it.
It is deserved.
I thank everyone that's engaged in this.
Thank you for having me, Zoë and Genevieve.
>> ZOË ROOT: Yeah, of course.
Well said, Patrice.
Antione, any closing words?
>> ANTIONE TUCKSON: I thank you all for having me as well, and for allowing me to be a part
of this panel.
Just remember effective representation is possible.
I've experienced it, I've lived it.
The Gideon decision, the spirit of Gideon is still alive and well, as long as we have
individuals like people on The Right to Counsel, who's willing to fight for and advocate on
behalf of clients and defendants.
So we've just got to keep that movement going, like Patrice said.
So, thank you.
>> ZOË ROOT: Thank you, Antione, for closing us out on a message of hope.
Our goal on this webinar was really to shed light on what is happening in the public defense
system, what is going well, what needs to change, what does the face of Gideon look
like now, both for clients who are in the system and the attorneys who represent them.
And Antione, Genevieve, and Patrice all did such justice to that mission.
So, thank you all so much.
If you have any questions about The Right to Counsel Campaign, feel free to reach out
to Genevieve or me.
Please feel free to also follow us on Facebook and Twitter, and be loud and proud on social
media about your support for The Right to Counsel.
Thank you, again, everyone, and please join us for our next webinar on June 20th, when
we'll be talking about technological innovations to support public defenders and their clients.
Thanks again.
Bye bye.
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