>>> EARLIER THIS MONTH THE UNITED STATES FOLLOWED THROUGH
WITH ITS PROMISE TO WITHDRAW FROM THE HUMAN RIGHTS COUNCIL.
CITING THE NEED FOR REFORM ON THE COUNCIL, AMBASSADOR NIKKI
HALEY MADE THE POTENTIAL MOVE KNOWN A YEAR AGO.
BUT WHAT IMPACT WILL THIS WITHDRAWAL HAVE?
WE GET DIFFERING OPINIONS FROM PROFESSORS VINCENT FERRARO OF
MOUND HOLYOKE COLLEGE AND GARY LEFORT FROM AMERICAN
INTERNATIONAL COLLEGE. >> MY INITIAL REACTION WAS A
LITTLE DISAPPOINTED, BECAUSE IF YOU WANT TO CHANGE AN TORGS BEST
WAY TO DO IT IS FROM WITHIN. BUT AT THE SAME TIME I
UNDERSTAND WHERE THE U.S. IS COMING FROM.
THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION BELIEVES THAT THE COUNCIL IS
POLITICALLY BIASED TOWARDS ISRAEL.
A NUMBER OF ITS MEMBERS ARE COUNTRIES THAT HAVE A HISTORY OF
HUMAN RIGHTS VIOLATIONS. IN ALL GOOD FAITH IT'S HARD TO
BE PART OF AN ORGANIZATION WHEN YOU DON'T BELIEVE THAT THEY'RE
LIVING UP TO THEIR MISSION AND GOAL.
I THINK WHAT'S REALLY IMPORTANT IS, IT GOES BACK TO THE BUSH
ADMINISTRATION OF 2006, WHEN THE COUNCIL WAS ORIGINALLY CREATED.
>> BECAUSE AT THAT POINT, KOFI ANAN HAD DISSOLVED THE PREVIOUS
HUMAN RIGHTS COMMISSION. >> THAT'S RIGHT.
>> AND ELEANOR ROOSEVELT CHAIRED THAT ONE.
BUT TO BRING IN PROFESSOR FERARO, WE HEARD NIKKI HALEY,
THE HEAD OF THE AMBASSADOR TO THE U. N. SAY ABOUT A YEAR AGO,
THAT IF CHANGES WEREN'T MADE THE U.S. WOULD REMOVE ITSELF FROM
THE COUNCIL. DO YOU THINK THE U.S. SHOULD
HAVE DONE THAT? >> ABSOLUTELY NOT.
>> WHY IS THAT? >> WELL, IF YOU FIGHT AND LOSE,
THAT'S ONE THING. BUT IF YOU DON'T FIGHT, THEN
YOU'RE DEFINITELY GOING TO LOSE. >> HOW WOULD YOU LIKE TO HAVE
SEEN THE U.S. PUT UP MORE OF A FIGHT TO USE YOUR WORDS?
>> I THINK HUMAN RIGHTS ARE UNDER ASSAULT ALL OVER THE
WORLD. THE UNITED STATES IS ONE OF THE
MOST IMPORTANT VOICES IN FAVOR OF HUMAN RIGHTS, AND FOR THE
UNITED STATES TO EXCUSE ITSELF MEANS THAT ESSENTIALLY IT
DOESN'T THINK THAT THE ISSUE IS IMPORTANT.
>> WHEN AMBASSADOR HALEY SAID THAT SHE FELT, TO YOUR POINT
PROFESSOR LEFORT, THAT THERE ARE ABUSES, THERE ARE PEOPLE ON THE
COUNCIL WHO HAVE BEEN APPOINTED TO THE COUNCIL REPRESENTING
COUNTRIES WHERE HUMAN RIGHTS MAY BE BEING TRAMPLED, SHE'S
CONCERNED THAT THE U.S. BEING CONNECTED TO THE ORGANIZATION
ALIGNS THE U.S. WITH THAT PERSPECTIVE.
IS THAT NOT THE WAY EITHER OF YOU SEES IT?
>> THAT'S HOW I SEE IT, THAT'S WHY I SAY I UNDERSTAND THE U.S.
POSITION. WHEN YOU HAVE A COUNCIL THAT
BETWEEN 2006 AND 2016 HAD 135 RESOLUTIONS AND 68 OF THOSE
RESOLUTIONS WERE DIRECTED TOWARDS ISRAEL, THAT SEEMS KIND
OF UNFAIR. WHEN YOU HAVE A NUMBER OF
COUNTRIES THAT ARE CONSIDERED NONFREE THAT HAVE A HISTORY OF
HUMAN RIGHTS VIOLATIONS, LIKE CHINA AND VENEZUELA, SAUDI
ARABIA, FOR EXAMPLE, THEN THAT JUST REENFORCES THE POSITION
THAT THE UNITED STATES HAS TAKEN.
WE DON'T WANT TO BE IN THE COUNCIL CONFIGURED THIS WAY.
THERE'S A NEED FOR REFORM. >> PROFESSOR FERARO, HOW DO YOU
THINK THE U.S. COULD HAVE STAYED INVOLVED BUT WORKED WITHIN THE
ORGANIZATION TO TRY AND BRING ABOUT SOME OF THE CHANGES THAT
WOULD HAVE BEEN MORE IN LINE WITH WHAT THE TRUMP
ADMINISTRATION WAS TRYING TO GET AT?
>> FIRST OF ALL, THE UNITED STATES SHOULD CLEAN UP ITS OWN
ACT. WE CAN TALK ABOUT OTHER
COUNTRIES NOT ADHERING TO HUMAN RIGHTS.
BUT WATER BOARDING IS AGAINST THE GENEVA CONVENTION AND THE
UNITED STATES DID THAT. IN 1994 THE UNITED STATES SIGNED
A CONVENTION ON THE RIGHTS OF CHILDREN, WHICH SPECIFICALLY
PROHIBITS THE FORCIBLE SEPARATION OF CHILDREN FROM
THEIR PARENTS. SO IT'S VERY DIFFICULT TO FIND
ANY NATION IN THE WORLD TODAY THAT ADHERES DISTRICTLY TO HUMAN
RIGHTS. ON THE ISSUE OF ISRAEL, IT MAY
BE A INDICATION OF BIAS, I'M NOT GOING TO DISCOUNT THAT.
BUT ONE CAN'T FORGET THAT THE UNITED NATIONS WAS CENTRAL IN
THE FORMATION OF ISRAEL. AND IT CREATED IN 1947 THREE
ENTITIES, A JEWISH ZONE, AN ARAB ZONE AND AN INTERNATIONAL CITY
OF JERUSALEM. THE SITUATION IN THE MIDDLE EAST
IS SOMETHING THAT THE U. N. CREATED.
THEREFORE IT HAS A SPECIAL RESPONSIBILITY.
SINCE 1947, THE ARAB ZONE HAS BEEN MADE MUCH SMALLER THAN IT
WAS IN 1947. AND JERUSALEM NOISE LONGER AN
INTERNATIONALIZED CITY. THEREFORE THE UNITED NATIONS IS
RIGHT TO CALL INTO QUESTION WHAT'S HAPPENING IN THE MIDDLE
EAST. >> AND I WOULDN'T QUESTION THAT,
I MEAN CERTAINLY THE UNITED NATIONS HAS THAT RIGHT.
BUT IT HAS TO BE A BALANCED RIGHT.
IT CAN'T BE AN OVERFOCUS, ESPECIALLY IN THE HUMAN RIGHTS
AREA, ON JUST ONE COUNTRY WHEN YOU HAVE OTHER COUNTRIES AROUND
THE WORLD COMMITTING ATROCITIES FAR WORSE THAN WE SEE HAPPENING
AS FAR AS THE ISRAELI-PALESTINIAN CONFLICT.
LIKE SAUDI ARABIA, THE HUMAN RIGHTS VIOLATIONS WE SEE IN
NORTH KOREA, OR THE SITUATION IN VENEZUELA OR CHINA FOR THAT
MATTER. >> YOU MENTIONED NORTH KOREA A
MOMENT AGO AND WE SAW PRESIDENT TRUMP MEET WITH KIM JONG UN NOT
LONG AGO. HUMAN RIGHTS DIDN'T COME UP
DURING THAT CONVERSATION. SO, AND WE HEARD THAT SECRETARY
MIKE POMPEO WHEN HE CAME OUT AND SPOKE ABOUT THIS HE SAID THAT
THE HUMAN RIGHTS COUNCIL WAS AN EXERCISE IN, QUOTE, SHAMELESS
HYPOCRISY, AND HE WENT ONTO TALK ABOUT HOW HE FELT THE COUNCIL
WAS BEING SILENT IN THESE AREAS. SO YOU HAVE THE TRUMP
ADMINISTRATION BEING SILENT ON ONE HAND, NOT BRINGING UP HUMAN
RIGHTS VIOLATIONS IN NORTH KOREA, BUT THEN POMPEO COMING
OUT AND SAYING SOMETHING DIFFERENT.
SO HOW DO YOU JIVE THOSE TWO DIFFERENT POINTS OF VIEW?
>> WE DON'T KNOW FOR SURE WHAT WAS OR WAS NOT DISCUSSED AS FAR
AS THE MEETING WITH PREMIERE KIM AND PRESIDENT TRUMP.
THE MAIN FOCUS WAS DENUCLEARIZATION.
YOU HAVE TO BE SO CAREFUL IN MUDDYING THE ISSUES OR WITH
OTHER ISSUES THAT ARE EQUALLY IMPORTANT, BUT THE MAIN FOCUS AT
THE MEETING WAS REALLY DENUCLEARIZATION.
I'D BE VERY SURPRISED IF IT WASN'T AT LEAST TOUCHED BASE ON,
BUT CERTAINLY WASN'T THE FOCUS, AND THE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY
FELT IT SHOULD HAVE BEEN ONE OF THE PRINCIPAL FOCUSES.
I THINK THAT WAS THE WRONG FORUM.
GET A CLEAR COMMITMENT TO DENUCLEARIZE, AND THEN ON
FOLLOWUP MEETINGS AND NEGOTIATIONS YOU CAN ADDRESS
ISSUES LIKE THE HUMAN RIGHTS VIOLATIONS.
>> PROFESSOR FERARO, TO THE POINT ABOUT SECRETARY POMPEO
SAYING IT'S A SHAMELESS HYPOCRISY, WHAT DO YOU THINK
ABOUT THAT PERSPECTIVE? >> WELL, LOOK AT THE U.S.
ALLIES. PROFESSOR LEFORT HAS MENTIONED
HUMAN RIGHTS ABUSES OF SAUDI ARABIA, A STRONG U.S. ALLY.
LOOK AT THE RELATIONSHIP OF TRUMP TO PUTIN, A HUMAN RIGHTS
VIOLATOR. LOOK AT TRUMP'S RELATIONSHIP TO
THE PRESIDENT IN CHINA. THE TRUTH IS THAT THERE'S
RAMPANT HYPOCRISY ON THE ISSUE OF HUMAN RIGHTS, AND THAT'S
UNFORTUNATE. IN THE UNITED STATES TO BE TRUE
TO ITS VALUES AND ITS CONSTITUTION, SHOULD BE THE
FOREMOST PROPONENT OF HUMAN RIGHTS IN THE WORLD.
AND I WISH THAT THE UNITED STATES WOULD RETURN TO ITS
VALUES AND ITS ROOTS, AND ARTICULATE THAT DECISION VERY
STRONGLY. >> WE HAVE ABOUT A MINUTE LEFT,
I WANT TO PUT ONE QUESTION TO EACH OF YOU.
AMBASSADOR HALEY SAID THAT THE UNITED STATES MAY COME BACK AND
BECOME A MEMBER OF THE COUNCIL IF A FEW CHANGES ARE MADE.
DO YOU THINK THAT WILL HAPPEN, DO YOU THINK THE UNITED STATES
WILL EVENTUALLY COME BACK TO THIS HUMAN RIGHTS COUNCIL?
>> I THINK THAT'S AN IMPORTANT POINT, THAT'S ONE OF THE POINTS
THAT I WANTED TO BRING UP IF THE OPPORTUNITY PRESENTED ITSELF.
THE UNITED STATES ISN'T SAYING THAT IT'S NOT CONCERNED WITH
INTERNATIONAL HUMAN RIGHTS, IT'S SAYING IT'S CONCERNED WITH THE
WAY IT'S HANDLED IN THE COUNCIL. AMBASSADOR HALEY DID SAY THAT
WE'RE NOT A MEMBER NOW, BUT SOME OF THE PROPOSALS THAT WE HAVE
RECOMMENDED TO IMPROVE THE COUNCIL ARE IMPLEMENTED THAT
THEY WOULD RECONSIDER THEIR POSITION AND REJOIN.
ONE OF THE AGENDA ITEMS IS THE FACT THAT ISRAEL HAS BEEN
BROUGHT UP IN EVERY SINGLE SESSION THAT THE COUNCIL HAS
GOING BACK TO 2006. SOMETHING THAT'S NEVER BEEN DONE
TO ANY OTHER COUNTRY. SO ONE OF THE CONDITIONS WOULD
BE THAT ISRAEL BE TAKEN OFF AS ONE OF THE AGENDA ITEMS AT EVERY
SESSION. >> PROFESSOR FERARO, I WANT TO
GIVE YOU A CHANCE TO RESPOND. >> I THINK AS LONG AS PRESIDENT
TRUMP IS PRESIDENT, THE UNITED STATES WILL NOT RETURN TO THE
HUMAN RIGHTS COUNCIL, IT'S NOT A PRIORITY FOR HIM, HE DOESN'T
CARE. >> THANK YOU.
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