- Now we're ready to enter the question
and answer portion of the evening.
A couple of ground rules to set out.
When you checked-in, we had people indicate
if you wanted to ask a question.
Obviously, maybe your question was answered,
and if so, that's fine, you can just raise your hand
and say no problem, go to the next one.
But we're gonna take people, we're gonna call people
up to the microphone in the middle
so that we can get all this on the record.
We're gonna call people up to the microphone
in the middle in the order that you signed in,
if you indicated you want to ask a question.
Because we have so many folks who want to ask questions,
we ask you to keep it to one question per person
and we ask you to limit your question
to a minute or less.
That's so that everyone can have an opportunity to ask.
If we have additional time, once everybody
has had an opportunity to ask a question,
then we'll go back and you can ask a second question.
- [Man] Is this considered open forum?
It seems to me like there's been several hours
to one side, probably a few minutes from the other side.
That doesn't seem (mumbles).
- This is a public information workshop
where we'll have an opportunity for folks,
like yourself, to come up.
(mumbles)
The purpose of this is to learn more
about what's going on with this proposal
and where it stands in the process
and for you to raise questions that you might have.
- [Man] And terms?
- Absolutely.
Alright, we'll go ahead and begin.
If at any point you have follow-up questions
or don't feel like your question was adequately addressed,
Lauris, the person standing in the back
is ready to take your information,
your complete question, and we will make sure
that Restoration Systems or one of the experts
gets back to you personally to address that question
and make sure that all of your concerns are addressed.
So the first question comes from Bob Emmanuel.
Is Bob here?
- [Bob] Yes, I have no question, I deffer to the others.
- Okay, thank you, Mr. Emmanuel.
The next question is Michael Williams.
- [Michael] No question.
- You guys are making this too easy.
Next question is David Rhodes.
- [David] Yes, my name is David Rhodes.
- Can you just come stand at the microphone?
Thank you.
- My name is David Rhodes and I live here in Raleigh.
In fact, very near here Hedingham,
I was wondering about how long we should expect
to see the benefits of once the dam is removed,
what is the time frame you think
we might start to see the benefits
of the dam removal.
- [Matt] Adam, do you want to start?
Thank you, Dave.
(mumbling)
Speak up.
- I'm trying.
I might be a PhD, but I can't operate a microphone.
To answer your question, it depends
on what particular part of the ecosystem
you're looking for a change in.
Expect to see habitats start to shift
as soon as water's released from behind the dam
and that will be an ongoing process.
It'll happen a little bit more with each flow.
Each rain, Spring event, or release from Falls Dam.
It will re-distribute some of the sediments
into new forms and into new places.
That is the basis of most of the change
that you're going to see.
That will become the habitat that will then
support the biology as it comes back into the impoundment.
It'll take some time.
I think that Tim and Matt here can expand
on that a good bit.
As far as water quality goes,
that will be pretty instantaneous.
Usually you don't have these water quality problems
in the Winter months, as in the Summer months.
So if the dam is removed in Fall/Winter,
come Spring and Summer, you won't have
those issues anymore.
Anybody else want to expand?
- With the dam removal projects
that we've been involved in and doing the monitoring of
as well as the literature on dam removal
that exists throughout the country and the world,
some of the fastest responders
are those Benthic macroinvertebrates.
Why that's important is that those are gonna be
one of the essential basis of the food chain
for the fishes and the birds and other things
to come in there and be able to take advantage
of some of the hallower habitats.
While they may not be eating the bugs directly,
some of the smaller minnows will also be attracted
to those birds, so the Benthic macroinvertebrates
responding within the first season
is something we've seen in the past.
They don't get to their ultimate improvement
in that first season,
but you already see a dramatic shift
because a lot of their lifespan is annual
for some species, while it's several years
for some of the longer life.
But they'll be coming in and deposit the eggs
and as soon as the flowing water habitat is there
and in the ripples, which is one
of the most rich habitats in the river ecosystem like that,
you'll start to see the change that Fall and Spring.
- Basically, I guess every dam removal's different
and different systems will respond
at different rates.
Our experience with the two that we've been involved with
with Carbonton Dam and the Lowell Dam,
the fish community response was fairly quick.
Within the first year of monitoring we saw improvement
and continued to see improvement
through the five-year monitoring period.
We didn't expect the mussels
to show improvement very quickly,
and that's mainly associated with their life cycle.
They require a fish basis to complete their life cycle.
And they're not very mobile.
So it takes them a while to populate new areas.
However, with Carbonton, the mussel recovery
was quite a lot quicker than we expected.
By year three, we're seeing rare species
that weren't there before show up in low numbers
in the form of impoundment.
With Lowell, that was a little slower,
but we did see improvement by year five
with the fresh water mussels.
- The next question comes from Mr. Bob Davis.
- Realizing that we're not talking
about a specific point in time, but a range
of time period, I'm just curious
what kind of timeframe we're talking about
for the actual removal down the line.
- Do you mean the deconstruction of the dam itself,
or the time period from now 'til it will be deconstructed?
- [Bob] I'd like to know when it will be deconstructed.
- How much longer are we looking at
before that actually happens?
- That's kind of a permitting question in our business.
That's always an important question
and we've learned the hard way of the years
that we don't count on things happening anytime soon.
As you can see, we're at a preliminary stage
and we've got four years into it.
I would say most hopefully by next Fall,
but most likely, by the following Fall.
- [Bob] Thank you.
- Thank you.
Jim Nelson is next.
- I have several questions about (mumbles).
- Thank you. - As we said,
it's a simple one.
How much would the water level in the river be reduced?
- Great question, and as you can imagine,
it's probably on a lot of people's minds
and I apologize for not including that information
in the presentation.
My forever reason, my 60 slides didn't have room for it.
The answer is, it depends.
I hate to be a broken record because
that was my answer to the other question.
It depends on where you're looking in today's impoundment.
The dam obviously, it creates deep water,
but the water gets deeper as you get closer to the dam.
There's quite a variation in the depth
of that impoundment now.
Here at the very top of it, it can be
a foot or two right now.
If you're really close to the dam,
it could be eight, 10 feet.
I think worse case scenario, you'll see an adjustment
under normal flow conditions close
to the dam about eight feet now.
As you go upstream --
- [Man] The water by the dam will be eight feet shallower?
- That would be my expectation, yes.
If you go upstream, you're gonna find
much shallow areas and much deeper areas,
depending on where you are because what we'll see,
pools will form and ripples will form
and you'll see a lot of variation in depth.
- How will that be conducive to canoeing and kayaking?
- It should be okay.
I've canoed the river both above the dam,
above the impoundment I should say,
and below the impoundment.
I think for those that are curious
and have access to the river,
that's what I would encourage you to do.
Put in above the impoundment, float to the impoundment,
and get a sense for what that stretch
of the river is like without a dam.
Once you get to the impoundment, you'll know it.
It will change enough.
It will get slow, it will get deep,
it will get a little wider.
And then be very careful, forage around the dam,
put it below it and float.
Float further.
And you'll get a sense, it'll be different
above it and below it.
But it's a rip above it and below it.
That should give you some sense as to what to expect.
- Thank you.
Camille Warren.
- Hi, I'm Camille Warren,
and I'm a kayaker.
I'm a member of two paddling clubs
based here in the triangle.
And did notice that sone of the factors
that are considered are recreational factors
and my interests are historical and recreational.
I've done a lot of research on the web
about the dam and it's got some very interesting history.
The original dam was built as an eight foot timber dam
before the Civil War.
And then around 1900,
the current Granite Block
and Mesa Route Dam was built
to a height of 16 feet (mumbling).
The granite blocks were locally poured
and given that and the fact
that the dam is so much history
of this area, I really feel like
they belong to Raleigh in Wade County
and it would be really wonderful
if the blocks would be donated
to the City of Raleigh for it to use
as it sees fit in the Milburnie Park
that it will build some day.
The other thing is as a paddler,
I enjoy flat water paddling
and have enjoyed paddling in Flat Waters Bridge
above the dam, but I also do
white water paddling, and have enjoyed that.
In some of the old historical references
I have read about Milburnie Dam,
some of the very old things I found refer
to even older documents that talked about
Milburnie Falls.
And of course, we all know,
these dams that were built for power generation
to run mills or whatever,
were often built at falls because
they could take better advantage
of the fall of the water.
There are places in the country
where dams have been removed strategically,
in such a way as to create really nice
white water features, and in fact,
in San Marcos, Texas, dam removal was done
in such a way that created this
beautiful river park with white water features.
Given the fact the dam is coming down,
there's very likely some interesting,
natural white water features there.
Nobody knows, it's been 150 years.
It would just be a real shame
to pass up the opportunity to take advantage
of that using what's there and perhaps,
even some of the blots
to create a wonderful
white water paddling location.
And so that's not really a question.
- No, but I think --
- No, that's a fine comment though.
I'm glad the corps of engineers was here to see it,
that there's public support for doing that.
You could imagine, when we do that,
it tends to just complicate the plan
because we've got a particular objective
we're trying to reach.
But if it can enhance the plan
and make it more attractive to have it removed,
and help please our regulators,
then of course we would consider that.
We've already done a lot of work
with Elizabeth Gardner and her club.
And we're actually gonna be contributors --
- [Camille] I belong to that club.
- Yeah, and we're gonna contribute
to the white water park, and we're gonna follow
what we feel we're a part of that river's community.
Whether we do something on the site,
possibly as a result of your comment
and interest of the corp,
or whether we're working upstream
with the paddling groups, that's one of our objectives.
We want to make recreation better on the river
and very much appreciate your comment.
- [Matt] Thank you.
- [Camille] Thank you.
- [Matt] Betty Rhodes is next.
- I'm really concerned about the area around Hedingham
and that was answered for me.
- [Matt] Okay, thank you.
Ed Brandle.
- Good evening, my name's Ed Brandle,
I live in the Foxcroft subdivision
and like many others here, I feel like
we're kind of being short changed
by the brief time we can spend up here.
I want to ask several things, but under the conditions
that prevail, I don't think I can.
One question I wanted to ask, though,
and I had several.
- [Man] Mr. Brandle, please ask all the question you'd like.
We don't have as large a group as we might've thought.
If you'd like to ask a couple of questions, go ahead.
- Well, that's good to note.
Have you considered a fish ladder?
Because there are several of us
who would be glad to fund a fish ladder to begin with
if that was one of the main problems
that you were facing and the reason
you want to take the dam down.
Was it because of the shad going no further?
They come 120 miles, I don't think 15 miles
is gonna make that much difference to the shad.
- And likely, there are a couple of things going on
and one is a little bit like putting dance shoes
on a cow, you know.
You've got an ugly, decrepit facility there.
Well, ugly in some people's views and not in others.
But it's a decrepit facility,
which is continuing to gray,
continuing to get older, continuing to get less stable,
and to take a very sophisticated thing
like a fish latter and make it an integral part of it
is taking something that is very unstable
and uncertain and putting a modern device on it,
which it seems unwise.
Second, as an economic proposition,
it might be a good idea if you get past those concerns,
but that wouldn't produce the credit sufficient
for us to probably either fund the fish latter
or make it worthwhile.
We don't get the same number of credits
for doing such an action as we would
for what we're doing here.
- I thought that was one of the main reason
getting the shad a little further
up the river and toward the dam.
It is, there are actually four different things
we have to achieve to get the credits
that we've defined.
If we only achieve that, it'll be one fourth
of the value of the project.
- I've been down that river a lot of times
in my boat, in those (mumbles) areas and
so forth, wetlands.
My opinion is that if it ain't broke, don't fix it.
There's a lot of wildlife in there
that's going to be destroyed, just a lot of wildlife.
We had docked too to go to down to
the Laurel Lake Dam.
And I'll tell you, those people down there,
they are hot.
I mean, I wouldn't even wanna show up to go
through that town now, 'cause they're hot.
They didn't like the results of it at all.
We went down there and walked up around the lake,
the river, that is, you see a tire over here
and that, this, and the other.
The mayor, they were just hot under the collar.
They were just ready to boil over.
I hate to think that this would be left the same way
and who'd clean up the debris upstream?
- We'll work with the agencies on that.
There's always some concern.
They consider the woody debris in there
to be a benefit to wildlife,
so we've got to be careful.
I think we can work out something
where we can get passage through,
if there is an adequate passage.
We don't know what it's gonna look like yet.
But nature will take care of it for one thing.
The Lowell Dam has got nothing but better
and better behind it.
It gets continually cleans itself out
in a natural manner and I imagine
this river system will do the same thing.
- I just know that there's a lot of junk.
I fish the river a lot too.
Batch of springs and (mumbles) and
everything else around there,
so there's a lot to be considered
in the clean up if you go that route.
- Just remember, all that's in there right now,
it would be an aesthetic thing to take it out
because whatever environmental damage
or toxic damage and that kind of stuff,
that's going on right now.
So this not only gives us a chance
to clean it up that we don't have
while the dam's there.
- So you'd clean up everything
that's exposed?
- I can't commit to that now,
not to clean up everything that's exposed.
Again, if it's woody debris and that type of stuff.
But if there's an old Model T sitting down
behind the dam, I guarantee you, we'll drag it out.
- Well, I guess you would.
By the way, I want to say something
to the people, or Howard's family.
I knew Howard for 50 years, he was a good man
and I appreciate him a lot.
I was in Jaycees with him and so on
and I was with him a week before he died.
I'm gonna miss him.
- [Woman] Thank you.
- I know you do.
I'll deffer to the rest of the people.
But I'd stay out of that area,
down there in Laurel Dam.
You won't be safe, I don't think.
- Take a look at the Carbonton Dam.
It's a larger river and kind of more similar to this one.
If you ever make it down there,
it's only about a 45 minute drive
and it's quite attractive.
- [Ed] Thank you.
- Next question is Mr. Bill Jones.
- [Bill] My question's been answered.
- Thank you, sir.
John Connors.
- Hello, I'm John Connors.
As a wildlife biologist, I appreciate what you do.
In this particular case,
I have to admit I'm a little skeptical
of the benefits and here's why.
We're trading ecosystems here, I think.
So there is a functional, vibrant,
as Ed said, wildlife rich environment
that's there right now,
up above the dam.
My concern is when we take the dam out,
which I would normally support,
the river system that's up above
from there to the False Lake Dam,
the City of Raleigh made a decision
when we put Falls Lake Dam in
to infill that flood plain,
that watershed.
And that is one of the heaviest,
neighborhood development that took place in Raleigh.
So all the streams that we're talking about,
a percentage of them like Perry Creek,
which I'm very familiar with,
these are highly impacted streams.
And so, sending the shad upstream to breed
in these areas, you know,
it's a little bit wishful, I think.
I can deffer to my friend Mike
and Tim, maybe you can tell me more
to reassure me that this will actually work.
That the shad will go up there
and have success breeding.
A measure of them making it
to False Lake Dam, is not a measure of success.
It's a measure of success
of breeders surviving up to there,
but we really should measure
whether they successfully spawn
and whether their young make it back downstream.
- [Man In Audience] You want me to --
- Go ahead and take a shot.
- I think when they did,
success criteria they will be required
to measure --
- [Man In Black Shirt] Mike, I'm sorry,
go ahead and introduce yourself.
- I'm Mike (mumbles) with the Fish and Wildlife Service.
I think with a --
They will be required --
So they will be required to do that.
I think if you look at most of these fish,
the striped bass, American Shad,
and you know, there's a couple of species of sturgeon too.
The sturgeon get up
and we don't really know how far they go up,
but they might make it up there.
But if you look at the trail ways of Falls Lake
and look at the water coming over the lake.
It's fairly clear, it's good water quality.
I suspect the bulk of the actual productivity
to augment the population will be proximate Falls Lake.
So the thing about these fish
is that they have, you know,
very high fecundity and you know,
you might have one individual that has
a half million.
Depending on the species, several 100,000 eggs.
That's where I think the real benefit if gonna be,
not so much up the trips at all,
but you know, getting right in that clean water
coming off the trail ways of falls.
But you're right, at the end of the day
what we really want to do
is get these where people might be able
to see a sturgeon in North Carolina.
Most North Carolina natives have never seen one.
They've seen them back up in Richmond,
you know, there are guys who have lived there
for 40 years and are seeing six-foot sturgeon
swimming under the bridge, it's kind of neat.
- [Man] Why was the dam removed?
- [Man] Well, because of habitat restoration.
I think, you know, they've done
some spawning.
They've done dam removal there too,
but they've done a number of things there.
That's what we're shooting for.
- Is there any value in
releasing those little fingerling shad
that they're doing now?
People are raising them,
releasing them to recolonize.
Will there be any value
in actually doing a test run?
Like letting some of those things go
off into Perry Creek or some place upstream
and see what the survival is this year.
- [Man] We've got the national fish hatcheries.
We've got a fish hatchery in (mumbles).
We realize that the production
and the natural system exceeds
what we can possibly produce in our fish hatchery system.
In other words, if we can get the Neuse working,
we could do the productivity
of four or five national fish hatcheries.
- My question is really like,
the macroinvertebrate populations
in those head water streams is very low.
So there's not very much for these shad hatchlings to eat.
- [Man] The food form is small larvae,
the fish, you know, when it's fertilized,
you've got the egg sack and then they exhaust that
and then they've got the food.
Really what you're doing is inoculating
the downstream area.
If you look at the distance between Falls Lake
and the ocean, or the (mumbles),
really you're (mumbles) areas
you're really inoculating that
with a larvae and stuff that use that habitat
that's all those miles down stream.
- [John] Okay.
- Then important thing to think about, John, is that --
I mean, Hightower would be a really good one to say this,
but he would say, molten volcanic rock
is basically a rocky riffly area,
and if you look at the Neuse,
you've got some around Smithsville,
you've got some around Hillsborough.
But then, when you're really getting into Raleigh,
that's where you're really getting
in the rocky bottom of the Neuse.
But you go up towards Falls,
if you've been in that stretch,
that's really primo habitat.
So by getting the fish, there's plenty of area there
to produce enough spawn to really utilize
the nursery area of habitat in the main stem Neuse.
But there's not spawning habitat
in all those miles of the coastal plain.
It's just not suitable spawning habitat.
- That helps.
- Thank you.
Next question.
Oh, sorry.
- I'd like to add a little bit
to what Mike was saying.
As far as even if Perry Creek
was a good quality creek,
probably wouldn't expect American shad
to go up into the small creeks.
It's kind of a river spawner.
And then, one other point to make is,
the migratory fish is just one component
of the aquatic restoration.
If you look at our baseline studies,
our upstream control sites
and our downstream control sites,
the fish community at the control sites
was much more what we'd expect
in a free flowing river than what's
in the impoundment.
To give an example, the fresh water mussels,
as far as abundance,
we measure abundance
by how many we find in a certain period of time,
how many per hour.
The six sites within the impoundment,
I think where you're looking at eight
or nine mussels per hour,
whereas the downstream control sites
were up in the 100s per hour.
Upstream control right near the Falls tail areas,
we're looking at 70 individuals.
There's definitely an adverse effect
to those communities from existing dam.
- Next question is from Janet Busset.
- [Woman] Busset.
- I'm sorry.
- Hello everybody.
I've been following this dog and pony show
for two years.
I live in Foxcroft,
which borders the impoundment.
The neighborhood is 180 acres.
It's Raleigh's little secret.
It's full of nature.
You come in there and there's (mumbles) everywhere.
Turtles that are 40 years old.
What I would ask as part of the process,
is somebody coming there and sample our neighborhood
see what we have before this happens
and after it happens.
I do want to say thank you to Mr. Rigsby,
Martin Dole, I've been following your work
for several years.
- [Martin] Thank you.
- Actually, I read your thesis this week.
Gave me a headache, but got through it.
I have some first hand experience,
like you, with the Lowell Dam.
And I chime in with Mr. Randall.
I'm not gonna repeat what he said,
but what was interesting, was that
it was your own hope that your research
would help with future dam
stream mitigation projects.
(mumbles) , I think that's great.
I'm not gonna fight
or say the dam going away,
I'm not gonna go there.
I'm gonna go a different angle.
Use that working hat,
I think it's great.
It's not scientifically defensible
because it's based on standards that you came up with.
It's all research.
But it's something
that nobody else has probably done yet.
What I think we need to do here,
and I thank you that we have this opportunity
to come together and get this out on the table.
I've been into this for two years
and I'm getting a headache.
So it's about time that all these leaders
and everybody in the community got it out.
Now, this is what I see.
I have enough evidence so far with Lowell Dam,
all these other dams, but especially
with what Mr. Rigsby said.
He saw from the approach that you took,
didn't go in there and do the blown (mumble).
Pretty much punctured a hole in it,
April you let out some water twice.
You meet in December and let some water out twice.
Issue was, they didn't bank on,
they had a high precipitation event.
Then it rained again in January.
They had a lot of downstream flooding.
Of course, that's been documented.
I've gotta control my hands 'cause I don't want you
to get distracted.
The difference between Johnston County,
and that's where I got a little bit of this twang from,
'cause I used to work for the mayor down there.
The difference between where the Lowell Dam is
and where this dam is, is almost like night and day.
This is a highly populated area,
down there is not.
I've been there, I've walked all around.
What else I don't see in this plan?
What's the emergency plan?
What's the contingency plan?
What are the site protections?
What kind of bond are you gonna put up?
And five years is not good enough for me.
I think it ought to be into perpetuity
or at least 10 years at a minimum.
And I think something needs to be coordinated
with the City of Raleigh
to protect these people downstream
and it needs to get out on the table.
- [Man] I'm sorry, protect them from what?
- From potential flood, like Adam's document.
(mumbles) heard anybody when all that flooding happened.
It was 13 days straight.
Are you gonna correct me?
- I'll respond to it.
- You're (mumbles) on that.
I've read your paper, am I wrong?
- I can tell, I can tell, great detail.
- I think we need to do something.
That's all I've got to say.
- Thanks for the comment.
Two things to go out there.
One is, we did learn a lot from Lowell
and we've learn a lot from other dam removals
that I did not participate in
and that we are fortunate enough
to have a rich literature to go by.
And when I say we've learned a lot from Lowell,
these two guys, to my right in particular,
they're the ones who did a lot of the science
that supported the mitigation project.
My dissertation involved following flows
through the reservoir after the dam was removed.
The dam did not add flows.
I think that's an important distinction.
The removal of that dam did not cause a flood.
I monitored the movement of sediment
and nutrients through the old impoundment
during flood events.
So what I was curious about,
and with the help of Martin and Doyle
and a few of my colleagues,
there you can see, was once the dam's removed,
we know that's a susceptible time
for that impoundment, as you noted, it's sensitive.
We were curious what happens.
What ends up leaving the impoundment
has been stored over 100 plus years
and where does it go.
We monitored dozens of miles of river
and we followed what I referred to
as a flood wave in my paper, but it was not a flood,
it never left the banks of the little river.
It was simply a pulse of water
with some sediment and some nutrients.
I need to make that distinction
and I'll gladly answer question about it
as this is important.
Removing Milburnie Dam is not gonna
cause flooding downstream.
Not during the process and not because
there's a rain event after the process.
We will not create a flood downstream.
Now what may happen and what you're referring to
in that paper, is something that I did call a flood wave
and I wrote that out.
Now, I'm second guessing the use of that term.
Six years later.
But what it was, it was during the dewatering process,
you're right, I released it twice.
It was during the dewatering process,
they opened the gates up and there was,
what I should've called, a pulse of water
and material that moved downstream.
So there's stored water behind the dam,
it then enters the little river
and then moves downstream.
It never left the banks of the little river,
so it was not a flood, that is --
Martin, you deserve to be reprimanded
for letting me write that in that paper.
It was not a flood wave, so I apologize for that.
To summarize, two quick distinctions.
You're right, Lowell is not Milburnie.
We did learn some lessons at Lowell.
We learned some lessons at Carbonton.
But there were several more,
thanks to (mumbles) Rivers, we saw this flood.
Thousand other dam removals out there
from which we can work.
And we can avoid making mistakes
that have been made over a 1000 over dam removals.
So there's a lot going in there.
And it's not gonna flood downstream
because we dewatered Milburnie.
It's an important distinction.
- Next question is Terri Benton.
- Thank you, a lot of questions have been answered
and I guess not answered this evening.
But I guess at this time we'll have to take that.
But I appreciate you being here tonight.
A couple of questions from the homeowners
along the Neuse River.
Ed touched on it, will the debris be cleaned up
from the river because when we watched the videos
from my friend, Jeanna went down
and she shot them, we found there's a lot
of debris on the river bank
and left a mess and people were very unhappy.
Will the banks be seeded?
And with Restoration Systems will be able
to post a bond to compensate homeowners for lost wells.
Our other concern, as I live in Riverbend Plantation.
When this first started coming around,
people from Restoration Systems apparently went
and spoke with our neighbors
about the Stoud Way
and they expressed to the neighbors
that when the river, the dam goes away,
there'll be no flooding in our neighborhood.
So I'm concerned about the level of the water
in Stoud Lake as well, which is in our subdivision,
which is Riverbend.
We're concerned.
Can you address whether that lake level
will be affected if the dam is taken out?
- I can give you very general answers.
I am not familiar with that lake.
I don't know how it's formed.
Obviously, I would imagine there's a dam.
It's probably not a natural lake.
- [Terri] Right.
- I don't know the nature of that dam.
I don't know where it's located
relative to the Neuse River,
and so honestly, I can't give you
a good plan of action. - So that would be
a question that I could pose and send in
and give you coordinates.
- Yes, ma'am, I will gladly look into that.
- And how about the wells
that most of my neighbors are on
as far as damage to the wells
if the dam goes away?
- You know, that is a common fear with dam removal,
is that --
And it's a logical concern.
Is that if you lower the water level of the river,
do you affect the local ground water table,
the depth of that table?
Its placement in the soil.
In some cases, yes, locally you can see that.
I'm not familiar with each individual well.
We didn't see that problem at Lowell,
and we didn't see that problem at Carbonton.
To order, John, were you ever called by somebody
who couldn't draw on ground water
because you removed the dam?
So I think that ground water is affected
to a certain extent.
The depth at which we usually drill
in order to get ground water for drinking water purposes,
is much greater than the dam
is gonna cause and affect it.
In other words, the straw goes so deep down
to tap into the ground water that I don't think
the dam is going to have an effect.
- I'm sorry our neighbor and good friend,
Ed Small couldn't be here tonight,
because he really is, I'm sure you're very familiar with Ed.
He has a science behind him
he can really listen to what you're saying
and make sense of it and he can ask questions.
I wish he were here.
I did bring a copy of the letter that he wrote
in response to the public.
I'd love to hand it out if I could.
They probably have it at corp,
but he had so many questions
that I'm not sure really, some been answered.
- I will gladly, please leave your information.
- Okay. - So that I can contact you.
- Lauris is right at the back of the room,
you can leave all your information.
Next question is Ted Dunn.
- My name is Ted Dunn, I live in the Woods Creek subdivision
which is adjacent to Foxcroft.
I think you've done an excellent job
in your presentation.
It's provided much more information
than what I heard before.
I guess my position would be that,
I think that whenever we would extend
the natural habitat of the Neuse River
for an additional 15 miles, that's very appealing.
As I listened to everything,
I realized the Army Corps of Engineers
can't say they're either for this
or against this, but they have to remain neutral.
But I think that for the neighbors,
who may not be exactly adjacent to the river
or the dam, but are in the vicinity
and have these legitimate concerns,
that you work through the process,
as you've obviously done so far
to address our concerns,
but one of the things that was touched on briefly
that I think that in addition to
extending the natural habitat
of the river to what it used to be
is that we have a structure that no longer serves
its original purpose, and with the extension
of the Greenway by the Raleigh Park System,
it seems that we have what is,
I'm not an attorney, but I think
it would be referred to as almost like
a public nuisance in the sense
that you have a dam that has taken lives before.
I know from where I grew up,
that's what dams do.
Like you said, they don't kill one person sometimes,
they kill two people, or the number of people
that go to rescue the original victim.
So that if the current owners of this dam
want the liability to go away
and they don't want the risk of future deaths
on their property because of the proximity
to the Greenway, it's almost,
if I was an attorney, we talk about scales of justice,
and rarely is anything ever 100%
and it's obviously isn't going to be 100% in your favor
because of the concerns of the neighbors in Foxcroft
and Woods Creek and perhaps heading down.
That would seem like they would consider
the life safety issues and so many other things
that we're talking about here
that you would still tip the scales
in favor of what you want to do.
I am so impressed with what you've done.
Attending this, I'm more likely to support
what you're trying to do, but hope that you will
for the neighbors, continue to address
their individual concerns.
Thank you.
- [Men] Thank you.
- The next question is from Cheryl Gregory.
- [Cheryl] I didn't have a question.
- Oh, okay, great.
Next question, John Holly.
- Listening with a great interest
to a lot of the information that's being presented
and one thing that I didn't hear a lot about
and just encourage you to take a look at,
if you haven't already, is potential
for head cutting erosion in some of the tributaries
that feed now into the open water.
A lot of that is directly adjacent to
or actually bordering on private land
and there could be some property damage
that is a part of that erosion process
that's gonna naturally occur.
And so some of that may need to be addressed structurally,
in the process of taking the dam out
and doing som work to correct erosion.
I would encourage that to be looked that.
My question I guess would be,
how much has that been looked at
and have you anticipated some potential problem areas?
- Thanks for bringing that up and that is
obviously a concern that you have
when you move a dam.
Head cut migration is fairly common to see.
In certain situations, you want to see that.
In other situations, like you just noted,
you don't want to see that.
My biggest concern for head cuts right now
is that open water area just below (mumble) Dam Lake.
And we're working to develop a strategy
so that we don't have that problem there.
Other areas that I have noted.
- We were out there today.
- Yeah, in fact we were.
Other areas I've noted, seem to have
some hardened structures, they're dams
with lots and lots and lots of riff raff
that connect the tail of the dam to the river.
That's good.
I mean it's not great habitat,
but that's great for a concern
like you just voiced and that we certainly share.
And that will be part of the process
to identify those spots and see what we can do
to avoid the problems.
Because, we want to avoid problems like that,
that's important.
- I just want to add, John.
I actually spoke with Mel Nevils this morning,
who I believe you work with
and I was speaking with him on another matter.
He brought this up too and I committed
to sit down with you guys at Land Resources
and go on over it in some detail.
- I believe this particular project
would end up with the city jurisdiction.
The city has a local (mumbling) control over.
Of course, it's delegated to them by us.
So we would be working hand-in-hand --
- Well you all are experts too.
We would involve the city as well.
- Thank you, Mr. Holly.
- Jay Saint Claire.
- Hey guys, this gentleman over here hit
on the first question I had too.
The first one was, I was curious,
is it a rumor or is it true that people have drowned here
and so how many people have drowned
as a result of that dam.
- Well, thanks, Mr. Saint Claire.
We got interested in that question
after the two deaths this Summer.
And I asked a young fellow that works for us
to go down to the Neuse Observer
and look it up.
It didn't take him too long.
I think we identified 11 deaths
that were in the paper that he was able to pull notice
some of them quite horrifying.
Four of eight of those were doubles.
In other words, there were four instances
where two people died, including a,
I don't mean to be dramatic,
but a one armed vegetable produce merchant
who went in after his wife, who never swam
a day in his life.
And yet he had one arm and went in after
and he went down, and that was on the cover then.
And what we figure is that there are
more single drownings out there
that didn't get picked up by the paper,
because it's not as newsworthy when two die.
You'd have either always kills in two's,
which is unlikely, or there are many more drownings
than just the 11.
So, there's 11 known, and only four of those
in the last five years.
And I suspect that going back, it would be
many more and above 20.
- [Woman] There's a small park there
that Carolyn and my father came gave the city of (mumbles)
where people can go that's public,
a little public area.
And there's postings and stuff about swimming,
but it's hot, it's 95 degrees in the Summer
and a five year old is (mumbles) fishing.
It's just inevitable when someone's gonna tempt fate.
- That's an excellent point.
And it brings up the Greenway part.
If you say that the number of people that drown
or get in trouble out there is a function
of how many people visited in the first place,
which would seem logical,
that was a very obscure location in Raleigh.
As you know, you can talk to a lot of people
who live in Raleigh, some of them their whole lives
and you bring up the Milburnie Dam
and they've never seen it,
that's not going to be the case
after they open up a full Greenway
to the Neuse Blueway.
There are going to be thousands upon thousands
of new visitors that never would have known
that place was there.
They're gonna find a new swimming hole
and that's gonna serve as an attractive nuisance
that the Twiggs no longer want to maintain.
- We put signs up, they rip them down.
They rip through fences.
It's just an impossible thing to keep up with.
- [Man] And it's only gonna get worse.
- [Woman] Right.
What's scary too is that the water on the surface
looks calm and still and underneath it
is where the strong current is.
It may look innocent, but it's not.
- Right.
- Second question, I'll try to make this quick
is for Mr. Rigby.
You did a good job talking about, I think,
the theory behind some of the negative impacts
that are a result of a dam being put
into a (mumbling).
And you also talked about some of the ecological benefits
that can come from removing the dam.
So my question for you is,
as part of this (drowned out by cough), yourself,
what have you witnessed and specific documented.
Maybe some of the highlights
of dam removals with this group.
- In terms of ecological changes.
- [Man] The changes.
- I think the most remarkable accomplishment,
if you will, or benefit, was the Cape Fear Shiner
and the Deep River.
It was one of the only ecosystem restoration projects
on the East Coast that I'm aware of
where we got federally protected species
to recolonize and a significantly long stretch of river.
10 miles, plus additional miles
in some of the larger tributaries.
In fact, Tim continues to go back
and document new occurrences of the species
and further and further back into the (mumbles),
which I think is just fascinating.
We've also seen some great shifts in habitat.
I mean, these guys have been through the river
a lot more than I have, to be honest.
Because both those removals took place
while I was conducting my dissertation research
and I did study them.
But then I left in 2006 and these guys
just kept going back year after year after year.
So if they want to expand, I certainly pass it along.
- I mentioned that the Benthic macroinvertebrates
are one of the first to change
and that's what we observed at both
of the removals that we were involved in.
With them being the base of the food chain,
it supported, I think, the fish species change
that Tim will be able to comment on.
And then ultimately, the fish are believe
the host for mussels.
That's why the mussels are the last step in that process.
We also had, you know, when the water goes down,
the river bed didn't always change as much.
I mean, there's some sudden deposition,
but then you also see you know,
when the water goes down,
the riffle and pool sequence gets reestablished
and say you have periods of shallow, fast water
within deeper slow water.
And those were there immediately in the first year.
But even over successive years of monitoring,
extra ones would pop up as sediment
was getting cleared out of those.
Seeing those habitats established
was really great.
I always had to be safety conscious with our crews,
but they loved going through those riffles
on their canoes and stuff.
And I go, you have $15,000 worth of gear in that boat!
(mumbles)
Seeing that and then you know.
I've heard several folks say that
there are great wildlife
and you know, I totally understand that
and agree with that and I think you're gonna see
that you are going to continue to see great wildlife
and you'll see a lot more birds all the way down
along the creek.
Wading birds fishing and I think
that those things will continue.
- Just add to that, as an aquatic ecologist,
I love great flowing rivers.
In the presentation I've done
about the Carbonton Dam removal,
got a shot of me standing at a ripple spot
and I tell the story, when we did
the pre-removal baseline surveys,
it was 17 feet deep at that spot.
We had to scuba dive to sample the bottom,
whereas, we were doing it wading.
And ripple habitats are very species rich,
very diverse, and as an ecologist,
that's what you look for.
- [Man] Right, thanks Pat.
- [Woman] There really isn't a free flowing river, though.
The corps (mumbles) control of the lease.
Is that not true?
- It seems to be a going point,
and it's something worth pointing out,
but keep in mind, that's true for every river
in North Carolina.
If you're on the Roanoke, you're controlled
from the Carl Lakes Dam, whatever they call that.
If you're in the Cape Fear at any point,
there are 17 dams on the Cape Fear.
So that every point along the Cape Fear is controlled.
Moving along, I think there's no major river
that reaches into the Piedmont, North Carolina
that isn't controlled.
That said, I think it will put significant pressure
on the corps.
You'd think it'd be prevailed upon
to probably do more nature like releases there.
- I think we know that this provides
the waters from Raleigh.
- [Man] That's right.
- Considering the fact that
the environment's changing dramatically
as it is and there's bound to be a drought.
A drastic drought, a (mumbles) drought.
Probably in our near future,
maybe in our lifetime, certainly.
When the people need water
more than the river needs water, what's gonna happen?
- Well, just remember that the people
who live in Smithfield, have been dealing
with the natural water level in that river
and it's never gone dry.
You've never heard them say --
- [Man] Smithfield is a lot smaller community.
- Right, but the rivers continue to flow.
The Neuse has never gone dry below the dam.
There's always been a flowing river,
even during the 2007 drought.
Right?
There's a minimum release.
There's a wall that says that (mumbles) there is serious.
- [Man] Not a wall.
- Not a wall?
- [Man] No, it's an agreement.
- Okay.
An agreement that they have to release
a certain amount of water for ecological purposes.
- Folks, can we just ask anyone who's asking a question,
since we are recording this for official
U.S. Army Corps of Engineer records,
that you ask your questions at the microphone.
And we have one more person who registered
that they want to ask a question,
so I want to get to them.
- Matt, it's okay, we'll wrap this up
and get to the next person.
- Okay, please.
- In the document, there is a hydrological analysis
because that's required by the corps.
In other words, will there be a sustainable
flow regime to support the ecosystem
we are proposing to restore.
And our analysis indicates that yes,
there should be.
Now, extreme events are extreme events.
The Neuse would run dry if we were in that type
of drought as you indicated,
regardless of where the falls are as they are not.
- [Man] We talked about Milburnie Dam,
it still be above --
- Well it too would run dry
if it was such an extreme event.
Milburnie doesn't create water,
it just holds on to it, which it evaporates,
goes downstream, whatever the case may be.
In this case, George was mentioning an agreement
that Smithfield has with the Army Corps of Engineers
and the state governments to release water
for water quality purposes downstream.
In other words, I believe it's Smithfield
that has a waste water discharge.
If there's not enough water being released
from falls, it's heavily concentrated pollution.
High amounts of nitrogen and phosphorus.
They want to avoid that and they want to avoid
the smell that comes with it.
So that's why you see a fairly reliable release.
And again, I wrote this document so long ago,
I don't recall the details immediately,
but it's in there.
It's under hydrological analysis section.
And if you have questions after reading that,
please get back with me or follow up
with me again and I will have read it more thoroughly
and will be able to more accurately answer that.
- I'll just add one thing to your question
about is it a free flowing natural river.
It's not natural, as George mentioned,
it is regulated, but our control sites,
which are upstream of the current impoundment,
we show that the fish fauna,
the fresh water mussel fauna are kind of
what you'd expect from a free flowing river system.
So we expect those species to recolonize
the impoundment that is created by Milburnie.
- [Woman] It's unfortunate,
I understand the (mumbles) point of view
that they want to get rid of the dam.
I know there have been several people
that have said that have said
they would speak with them on a private basis,
in fact, (mumbles) in Winston-Salem to speak
with Carolyn Fox and he was intercepted
by Mr. Howard, he didn't want to allow
that conversation to go on.
- Man, that's not true.
- [Woman] That's not true?
- No, I went down with him, greeted her with him.
She asked me to come with him
because she felt a little bit intimidated
that someone wanted to come and talk her out of something.
- That's not intimidating.
He said he felt (drowned out).
- She wanted me to come there and be with her.
I didn't intercept and we rode down the elevator together,
welcomed her back to her room
and I did my best to answer questions
that she couldn't answer.
- [Man] Did he limit the number of questions
that Mr. Howard could ask?
- [Man] No.
- Alright, next.
Our final question that someone had indicated ahead of time
and then we can take a few more
while we have time available.
Jeff, and I'm sorry if I get this wrong, Destreach.
- A follow up I think on the hydrological question.
Is there any hydrological effect
on the nine miles above the pool?
Are there any shock absorber effects
from having that pool down there?
Or a rate change?
- [Man] Rephrase that question for me, I'm sorry.
- On the section of river above the pool,
the pool water.
- Which is the impoundment?
- Above the impoundment.
- Between the impoundment and falls (mumbles),
is there gonna be any hydrological change for that?
Is the flow gonna feel faster or --
- You know, I expect the answer is inforseeably yes.
Impoundments we have to draw a line
and say the effect stops here,
but that's not necessarily true.
Because there are secondary effects.
I think yes, it could get a little bit faster,
but I don't think that you would notice,
to be honest.
- Alright, and I believe we have time
for two more questions.
Sir.
- I indicated I wanted to ask a question.
I'm Jim Hayden from Foxcroft.
My interest in the river is that I knew the river
with my children and my grandchildren,
so I really enjoyed the (mumbles),
because I could (mumbles) right down
to where my property is.
But my question is, the real reason
for taking down the dam is to receive
the mitigation credits and the goals that you have
are to achieve or to measure how much credits you get.
I notice you guys sitting at the table here
are pretty much of the same community.
You're interlinked to some degree.
And I suppose in monitoring the river,
that those monitoring studies are paid for by RS,
is that correct?
- [Man] Mmh hmm.
- Now, my question is how do you maintain
your independence when your client
is gonna be the person who benefits
from your results.
Who monitors your independence is my question.
- I'll be glad to take a shot at that.
And obviously Restoration Systems
is a sponsor of the mitigation bank.
As you've heard from the owners of the dam tonight,
the dam is their private property,
they wish to see it removed.
We've been engaged in the effort with them
to go through the permitting process.
The team of consultants we have up here tonight
does work for many other clients,
much bigger and more powerful than Restoration Systems.
And their projects have to be reviewed
by the Corps of Engineers too.
I think that in the spirit
of a positive discourse,
you shouldn't cast dispersions
on the team of consultants we have up here tonight
or the quality of their work
because if there was a made as instructed type
of work product, they would not have any credibility
with the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers
for other clients.
And instead, they have a great deal of credibility
based on their track record, of long successful projects.
- Anyone want to speak (mumbles) integrity (mumbles).
- I understand why you asked the question,
I get it.
I'm sure you understand the response
I'm about to give you, which is,
I like to be a person of integrity.
I went to school studying systems that I love
and I hoped that when I got out,
I could be a part of something that was giving back
and I wasn't taking paychecks
and that was the only concern.
I like to get paid, I'll be honest,
I do have two small children, and a wife, and a house.
So I do have to pay the bills,
but I don't do it at the expense of my integrity.
And I don't think these guys do either.
- I'll just add to that.
We are contracted by Restoration Systems,
but the amount that we get paid
has no bearing on whether they receive
maximum credit or no credit.
We're getting paid the same amount regardless.
If the dam's removed
and Restoration Systems
aren't awarded any credits,
we're still gonna be expecting our paycheck.
- [Man] We're not being paid by the shad.
- [Matt] Alright, we have time for one final question.
- [Man] I believe I put my name,
or I put a check mark.
- I'm sorry, it looks like we missed a couple.
Please come on up.
Could you just state your name
when you get to the microphone.
- My name is Ferrel Benton,
I live right on the river.
I enjoy the river the way it is.
I'm wondering why the leak, depth in species,
they're such a bad thing.
Looks like they're all gonna go away again.
In return you'll get one, maybe two week opportunity
to watch the shad swim by and
that's some wild catching.
Also, I didn't realize they were an endangered species.
I also understand that they are commercially fished,
I can't imagine that would be allowed
if that were in fact the case.
The other thing is,
(mumbles) our neighborhood, we have a little lake there,
we spend a lot of money to maintain the lake.
It's a lake called Lake Iris.
I'm surprised you didn't notice it,
it backs right up to the dam.
- [Man] I'm sure I noticed it,
I don't know which one is yours, that's my problem.
Sorry about that.
- When the water level in the river comes up
due to flooding or due to releases from the dam,
False Lake Dam.
Our neighborhood floods, and it doesn't flood
by coming back over the dam.
It seeps up through the sand.
So we know that the sand is coarse enough
to allow water to come up through it.
Obviously it's gonna be coarse enough
that the water goes back down through it.
So when that level goes down,
our lake's gonna go away.
I'm 99% positive for that.
I'm just wondering how we'll be compensated for that.
- A lot of questions there.
Tim, will you address the species questions?
- Yeah, the lake adapted species,
they won't disappear.
They'll inhabit pools.
As Adam mentioned earlier, rather than homogeneous river
of just deep, full habitat, you'll have ripple runs
and pools.
And so those species that are there now,
we expect them to continue to be there.
Just not totally dominating.
It will be more ecologically diverse fish bottom.
The bit about the American shad being endangered,
it's not an endangered species.
There are state, endangered state threatened species
that do occur in the Neuse River
and we hope to see a benefit to those species
from removal and that's maybe
where the confusion came from.
- Again, in reference to the dam.
I certainly follow up with you guys on that.
That is the same lake, correct?
(mumbles)
So we'll follow up with you on that.
Again, I don't know the location exactly.
I do know the soils fairly well
in that flood plain area along the whole impoundment
and it's not as much sand as you think.
Now your location may be completely different story
and I haven't seen it and haven't been on the ground yet,
but what I know going up and down that impoundment
is a whole heck of a lot of fine sediment.
Fine sediment doesn't actually allow
for a lot of flow up and down.
It traps water and holds on to it very effectively.
That's just my observation across the region as a whole.
I'm not trying to discredit or challenge
your observations over time.
You know your place better than I do.
I'll gladly make a visit and we'll learn
what I can learn and I'll share with you what I learn.
- If the water level changes there changes that dramatically
in the near future ...
- Is there a dam in place now, sir?
Okay, so chances are good.
And again, I'll learn more once I'm on the ground.
Chances are good, someone built that dam
to hold water that was coming up slow.
That's what dams are for.
They didn't build the dam to hold water
that comes in underground.
Because you wouldn't need a dam
if it simply exchanged underground.
A dam usually traps surface water, not ground water.
It's not always the case,
but the position of the dam,
I'm just assuming based on what I learned here tonight,
suggests to me is capturing water
coming from up slope along the bank
and then it's holding it in place.
Your experience, and again,
I'm not trying to argue.
- [Man] (mumbles) I couldn't tell you whether (mumbles).
- I'll be glad to take a look,
and everything I learn, I'll share.
- [Matt] Alright now.
- [Mike] I wanted to add, I think then on one thing
to think about, I work with the Fish and Wildlife Service,
so I'm a civil servant to the population
to this state and city
and locals.
The way I look at it is that I think there's
a real misconception about why I would support
this type of thing.
If you just look at the stretch of river
from the dam, you know, past your property
or even up to the lake, and the benefit
that people have seen the fish,
American shad, sturgeon and whatever,
as it relates to that property,
is relatively finite.
It's like you said, what's the benefit if I see a shad
or even if there's 10 people fishing for them.
What's the big deal?
There's not a big a deal about that.
The thing you've got to bare in mind
is the fish that spawn in this area
are the same ones that feed the speckled trout,
the puppy (mumbles), the flounders,
the blue fish, the tunas, the mackerels,
the dolphins.
When you get down to Oriental,
get down to Atlantic Beach, if you look
at the recreational fishing industry
in North Carolina, it's a $1.4 billion industry.
There's a lot of people who make their living doing that.
A lot of people's children have their jobs.
It's a state and federal resource.
If it was a private farm pond,
or a private lake, absolutely.
But the thing is, I think there's a problem
and that some people consider the river their lake.
It is very important to the populace
of the state and the country
and that's the reason we're interested in it.
If it wasn't a huge benefit, I would personally
never support it, because obviously,
some people love the dam and think it's pretty
and that kind of thing.
- The question I have about that is
to have the least impact, why wouldn't a fish ladder
be just as effective?
- We're building a fish ladder.
The Corps of Engineers is locking them number one
as a $13 million project.
Now we've got steep pass ladders
that hold like --
In other words, that's one of the things
that I interact with, building fish ladders.
To build a fish ladder on Milburnie Dam
would probably cost several $100,000.
We've been trying to get funding
to build a fish ladder at Carbtree Creek,
which is owned by the City of Raleigh,
they're pretty sweet on it.
I mean, they've got no objection.
The homeowners there, that are the controlling interest
in last year's Mill Dam, and I talked to people,
they were at the dam.
I feel fairly confident in dealing
with these type of things before.
If we built it and looked nice
and keep it with that historic structure,
they'd be fine with it.
The problem is there's no money
to do things like that.
I think the notion that fish ladders
are relatively inexpensive is generally and not true,
they're fairly expensive.
- Several million dollars make in credit stuff
available to ...
(muffled voices)
- In core speak, that would be an alternative.
And the alternative wouldn't work for two reasons.
One, Mike was getting in it, it's expensive.
Just because we pass shad over Milburnie,
doesn't mean it generates enough credits
to pay for the fish ladder, in fact,
it probably doesn't.
That's the least productive ecological component
of this project in terms of credit potential.
We have to think like that.
This is a project that has a budget.
And whatever credits we generate,
we have to be able to sell to recoup the cost.
The other thing is that it probably increases
their liability at the site.
They still have a dam in place,
that hasn't gone away, and now
they probably added another nuisance on top of it.
Now you're gonna have the potential
for people to climb up and down a fish ladder.
That sounds like you just increased --
- [Woman] On an old structure.
- On an old structure.
Right, and George brought that point up earlier
that you know, you're putting some new,
nice piece of technology on top
of a very old, old foundation.
- As far as that goes, as far as
where there's a concern for safety,
now taking that dam down, it's just gonna expose
more areas of rocks and places where
a current isn't obvious all along the river bank
and that together with the Greenway,
I would think the safety issue
is going to be disbursed,
it's just gonna be (mumbles).
- The simple fact is the owners don't perceive it that way
and they're the ones that are bearing
the cost and the anxiety
for your aesthetic pleasure.
And I don't mean that as flippin' as it sounds,
but that's what's going on now.
They're no longer willing to bear that.
Even if some other alternatives,
their opinion is the most important opinion in the room.
If they didn't want the dam removed,
we wouldn't be here.
- But we're open for other people to purchase the dam.
I mean, that's certainly a conversation.
- There are more than one concern.
What I want to say is, I really honor and appreciate
your long patience with this long process.
And I also understand
that you have private concerns
for your private property because it's going
to affect your private property.
As I try to say, and I'm not a public speaker,
but my father did not go into this
without thinking this through.
He was a citizen of Raleigh in a big way.
He cared deeply about the public.
And he chose these people because he knows
that they were going to do something
that was going to have the least negative damage
as possible for everybody else.
The only thing that I want to say is,
I honor and hear your concerns and
it is my hope that this process, what you've seen,
will at least alleviate some of your concerns.
There will be change, change is inevitable,
change will happen.
Change is hard and there's gonna be pros and cons
for everybody.
And I have to reiterate what George said.
Honestly, I'm really just following through
with my father's wishes, I'm not been
that involved in the process,
although he talked to me a lot about it.
I'm seeing why he wanted to make this decision.
He had grave concerns for Carolyn and her family,
as you can imagine.
In addition, he was very concerned about liability.
And he did have an environmental concern.
It's on several levels, it's not just about shad,
it's not just about lake bubbles.
It's about so many things.
And my hope is that although it will change the area,
it will still be really beautiful.
I think it will still be really beautiful
and I don't think my dad would have chosen this path
if he thought he was going to leave a mess
for other people.
I just see he wasn't that person.
I really don't think that's gonna happen.
And I hope the hard work of these people's presentation
has certainly impressed me,
and I hope, you see, there really is
a genuine effort.
Money will be made, there's money in this process,
that's how it's gonna work.
But, it's not about coming and just raping the land
and rolling over people and taking the money.
It's really not.
- [Woman] We love the river as well,
we're out there every year (drowned out) it.
- I know.
- [Woman] We're very much participating ...
- I know, and I appreciate you guys
being so participatory.
- Another thing about the dam going away,
that's going to make the river accessible
to canoers and kayakers.
People who now can take advantage of miles
of the river by going in another boat
other than the kayak boat commute
will lose access to that river.
I have elderly uncles, elderly step-father-in-law
that really very much loves to come and go fishing there.
That's gonna go away for them.
There's no way that they'll be able to access
that big mile stretch.
And I'm just wondering if there aren't other people
who are not as well and abled.
You guys are gonna be old someday
and maybe would like to have something
like that available.
It's just a comment and I think
it's a fair comment.
So you're taking something away
other than monetary value.
- [Woman] I think that ...
- [Mike] I work around dams a lot.
I have the unfortunate task of sometimes
talking to parents who's children have died in dams.
Apex Fire Department that pulled out
the two kids that drowned last Summer.
It's hard for somebody like me.
I may have liabilities working on fish ladders
and helping with people's drownings,
but liabilities don't drive somebody like me,
but what does drive me is that
if I know that you're doing something
that will ultimately result in a child's death
that was avoidable, that's a very driving thing
for somebody like me.
- More kids draw in buckets than drown in a dam.
- [Mike] If the hydraulic beneath Milburnie Dam,
underneath the tail ways, esisodically is such
that I couldn't swim past it.
I don't think anybody could swim through it.
I'll take you out there and show you sometime
if you'd like to.
It's a death trap.
It's not a situation
where somebody can't swim,
it's not what it is.
I'll be happy to show it to you if you'd like me to.
- Alright folks, I think --
- Any kind of water is a death trap.
- [Mike] Absolutely.
- [Mike] Children or not.
- I'm talking about ...
- [Mike] That's not correct.
I mean the potential to drown and anything is there,
this curler hydraulic, it's a death trap.
- Alright, I want to thank everyone
for coming out tonight and staying a lot longer
than we all originally planned.
- [Man] If we have more questions,
who do we ...
- Yes, if you have more questions, Lauris
is at the back of the room.
- [Man] Let me explain something.
- Please go to him and you can register you name,
contact information, and who you think
would be the best person from the team up here
to respond to you and we will get back to you.
Thank you all.
- Special thanks to Tiffany (mumble).
- [Woman] Thank you, Tiffany, thank you.
(crowd background chatter)
For more infomation >> Assemblyman Surveying Public On Oroville Dam Spillway Response - Duration: 2:22. 
For more infomation >> Should 'Explosive' Donald Trump Dossier Be Made Public? | AM Joy | MSNBC - Duration: 9:30. 
For more infomation >> iOS 11 Beta 8 — ЧТО НОВОГО? (Ничего, но бету выпустили) - Duration: 2:24. 
For more infomation >> Lawmakers convene for rail special session, hear public testimony on funding proposal - Duration: 3:23. 
For more infomation >> Second public safety tax initiative headed to Pueblo voters - Duration: 1:54. 
For more infomation >> Public Royalty : La princesse Madeleine de Suède est enceinte de son troisième enfant ! - Duration: 1:54. 
For more infomation >> State funding for public education - Duration: 0:36. 
For more infomation >> Are mug shots public record in Montana? - Duration: 0:50. 
For more infomation >> SACS to host final public meeting on building upgrades - Duration: 1:49. 
Không có nhận xét nào:
Đăng nhận xét