Is our government a single hierarchy of
authority, the county a subset of the
state the state a subset of the federal
government? That seems to be the way
most people perceive it. That is the way
it looks on a flow chart, but is that how it
really works. Hello again and welcome to
The County Seat, I'm Chad Booth. Today
we are going to look at how governments
communicate with work with each other,
particularly what the connection is
between your Local County and
Washington. We begin by looking at the
different ways counties and the federal
government touch each other in the
course of their duties in the Basics.
Why does my county commissioner, councilman,
or sheriff have to trot off to Washington at
taxpayer expense all the time? After all aren't
our elected congressmen and senators in
charge of making federal law while our
commissioners are in charge of creating county
ordinances? That is true in a sense,
commissioners and councilmen only have the
power to create ordinances, but they do have
the power and OBLIGATION to influence other
laws, which will impact their constituents.
Their legal responsibility is to protect the
health, safety and welfare of county citizens.
Congress is often debating legislation that has
huge impacts on local communities but they
are so far away from main street they can't see
the impact that laws have when they are
implemented and with so many voices from
lobbyists and special interests, local
government should be involved, if your sheriff,
councilman or commissioner is going to look
after your welfare as a citizen.
A perfect example of that is if Washington
introduces a new law that had the potential to
bankrupt a county, the county representatives
should have their voice heard. Whether it is
unfunded mandates, changes in Medicaid or
conflicts between local and federal law
enforcement, things that happen in
Washington affect Utah, and our congressional
delegation needs the input from local "on the
ground" leaders to make sure they are
representing all of the local constituents.
But perhaps, more important than the legislative
side of the equation, is the relationship with
Regulatory entities. Regulations are created by
policy makers who are not elected, and have
no connections to the local people, who
sometimes live on the other side of the
Country.
According to a recent article in Forbes Magazine,
there were 115 new laws passed by congress
in 2015, at an average of 15 pages per law for a
total of around 1700 pages of new statutory
law. On the other hand the federal register
added 82,036 new pages in to their books, of
which around 27, 000 were new regulations.
Those regulations can impact a community in
the same way a law does.
It is almost impossible to change a regulation
once it it's passed, but often there are hearings
where these regulations are being planned and
discussed. If local officials are at the table they
can have some effect on those proposed
regulations.
So there ARE legitimate reasons our local
representative's travel to Washington to
represent us, without those trips, the
communication between federal and local
would grow further apart, what are we
currently doing to close that gap of
communication? We will find out In our
discussion today on the County Seat, I'm
Maggie K for the County Seat.
Chad booth: welcome back to the
County seat we are continuing our
conversation talking about the
importance of a direct connection
a relationship between local
government and Washington DC both
the elected officials and the
administration joining us for our
conversation part of this show is
a Commissioner from Sevier County
here in the town of Richfield
Tooter Ogden. Thank you,
Commissioner, for joining us.
Tooter Ogden: good to be here.
Chad booth: and Russ Cowley, who
is the executive director of the
six County Association of
governments down here, so we
appreciate your taking the time
for this conversation. I would
like to talk about the tools in
the toolbox for the counties to
have a direct connection with
Washington. I know several
counties. Chip in to hire a
lobbyist that serves in
Washington to try and keep
pushing local County issues, but
they're also a lot of other tools
of and associations you belong
to. Could you kind of give us a
rundown of that?
Russ Cowley: well all start out
Chad, one of the things that
we've been involved with is going
back to Washington and actually
taking our commissioners and are
board members back to Washington
to have them actually sit down
with our congressional members
talk about the issues that are
important to them. One of the
things that happened with me long
ago was that as we went back to
that Washington trip there is an
organization that we belong to
call the national Association of
development organizations. It's
kind of a partner with the
national Association of counties
but for executive directors to
understand more about how to deal
with Washington and work with our
programs. And as we have gone
back to that organization and
have that opportunity to actually
go out and work with those folks
on how bills are written and even
get involved with the writing of
bills and so it's been very nice
to be able to have the support of
County commissioners that will
allow us as their employees to go
back and actually become educated
on those kind of issues.
Chad booth: you've got the
Western intermountain region of
the national Association of
counties W IR and NACO how do
they help interface. In this
whole Washington mess because it
apparently your visits when you
go on these NACo Washington
junkets are not necessarily just
to our elected delegations you
meet with all kinds of people.
Tooter Ogden: yes, you do, you'll
meet with people. Obviously with
W IR that is the Western regional
side of the United States and we
have a lot more in common with
the Western states. So, when we
have that convention you are able
to meet with your other elected
officials and those who are
representatives of us in that
board and try to get a unified
voice. When you go to NACo which
is the whole United States and
then at that time you're able to
go forward and at that time make
legislation that hopefully will
have some power because now
you're unified with the Western
states and also with NACo going
forward when you're back making
rules.
Chad booth: so, have those
associations been able to open
some administrative doors as well
as legislative? I know the bill
making process is very messy much
more messy then at the County
level but have they a made an
impact as far as working with
like the Department of Interior
the EPA and groups like that.
Does that connection help?
Russ Cowley: it definitely helps.
And one thing that I may say for
our six County Association of
governments are board have always
been very supportive of sending
folks back to Washington and I
have been very amazed at how
important it is for a County
Commissioner to actually have
that experience of going back to
Washington and has Commissioner
Ogden has said actually sitting
down with a member and talking
about other issues and their
concerns. It means a lot to them
and I might just mention also
that is we go through the process
we have the congressional
members, staff come to our
meetings they have that
networking with those folks every
month and then as we go back to
Washington, DC, they are very
good to help us with any issues
we have as we go back to me with
a member themselves.
Chad booth: do you think you've
turned any heads. I mean do you
think there've been guys in
Tennessee or North Carolina that
all of a sudden start to
understand Western issues because
of the efforts of NACo and W IR
and your junkets back to
Washington?
Russ Cowley: what's fascinating
about that is if you go back and
you get involved with some of
those organizations and as I
mentioned with the NATO
organization. I was able to be on
the board and if you those
things. And what was funny about
it is I would go back and they
knew I was from Utah and the
first thing that they would
always say to me is they would
say okay Mr. Cowley tell us about
public lands because I was always
bringing up the public lands
issue of this area and so we've
actually had the opportunity of
bringing those folks back here on
this congressional briefing and
it's been very interesting to get
their reaction it's something
they haven't ever seen before.
They don't understand public
lands and is you start explaining
that to them and actually give
them an on the ground experience
it's funny to watch their
demeanor change and so it's a
great opportunity.
Chad booth: is that something you
think we need to do more of is
actually getting them from
Washington out here, so they can
see it firsthand. Is there
something lost in the translation
of you telling them about the
problem and then seeing it?
Tooter Ogden: very much so in a
were trying to be managed by
people in Washington that's 2000
miles away. And a lot of these
folks have never even been out
here on the federal lands in our
Chad. Obviously, you are about
76% of federal lands and a lot of
these people in the East they
don't understand that at all
because they have very little
federal land or very little input
on their federal lands. So were
trying and we continue to get
more involved with the people in
the East, that's one thing with
NACo you go back there and you
try to get with some of these
folks like the other
commissioners from the East try
to explain to them what our
concerns and what are issues are
we try to get onto these
communities so that we can make
an impact. We try to get them to
understand what's going on here
in the West.
Chad booth: will that solve some
of your problems as a six County
AOG I mean I know sometimes you
go to the Department of Interior
for some grants and things like
that for your counties in fact,
I'd like to spend just a little
bit of this time talking about
that part of the relationship.
The fact that because of you know
we've got P.I.L.T. issues. We've
got grants we've got things like
that. What is that part of that
connection with Washington
directly with counties?
Russ Cowley: well, if we are not
fighting for the rights of our
area. Nobody else is and so what
we've been talking about is
building those relationships and
to have that office closer to
actually where the lands are
would make that a lot easier for
the commissioners. I mean how
many trips do you guys go on back
to Washington just to present an
idea or two have to go back and
represent one of their proposals
for one of their private, public
land issues. And if it was in
here in Utah. They wouldn't have
to drive that far, and this is
where it's all taking place
anyway.
Chad booth: I guess a Wyoming
rancher wouldn't have that much
trouble getting there to a
hearing or anything.
Russ Cowley: no, no.
Tooter Ogden: it would be a
little easier.
Russ Cowley: but what's really
interesting about what you're
talking about is you take
P.I.L.T. and S.R.S. you take that
funding source away from the
counties and we have counties
that would probably go bankrupt
and you think about some of those
counties that have 97% public
lands, that's very difficult for
them to make up a difference of
P.I.L.T.
Chad booth: is that money, Tooter
that is direct money direct from
the federal government to the
County. It's not like filtered
through a state or region or
something like that.
Tooter Ogden: no, it comes right
directly to the County. We get
about 1,900,000 a year.
Obviously, that translates into
acres dollar wise. It's about a
dollar 80 per acre for Sevier
County, which is minimal for all
of the work that we have to do
out there. We have search and
rescue that has to go out and
help assist people when they have
accidents or problems on the
federal lands and it's important
we have that there's 49 states in
the United States that receive
some sort of a P.I.L.T., payment
and that's payment in lieu of
taxes. Obviously, we continue to
battle that because a lot of
these counties like Russ has
mentioned they rely heavily on
that and we put that into our
budget every year and then we
have to ask Washington.
Chad booth: to live up to the
commitment.
Tooter Ogden: to live up to the
commitment to that P.I.L.T.,
payment.
Chad booth: so, is that dollar 80
a lot less than Joel Jensen that
she would pay for an acre of
range lands that she owns
outright?
Tooter Ogden: sure, your
greenbelt is about a dollar 50 an
acre. If we could even get the
government to, to pay a dollar 50
an acre that would be substantial
for all of these counties what we
would really like to see is go
back to management of the forest.
That's what was originally taking
place before the P.I.L.T. was
introduced is they had to make
their forest pay their way and
that goes back to the logging
goes back to the grazing it goes
back to the managing of the
forest going forward.
Chad booth: well, there's some
headway that should and can be
made in that area, I kind of want
to finish up this conversation by
talking about we've gotten pretty
good with some of the events that
you hold of actually getting our
local delegations out there. Do
we need to get guys from South
Carolina out here on the ground?
Russ Cowley: yes.
Chad booth: how do we do that?
How are you going to bribe them
to get them to come here.?
Tooter Ogden: feed them and big
beefsteak ha ha.
Russ Cowley: well, that's one
thing that's been fascinating
about our congressional ride a
lot of people go out and they
bring folks out and they'll put
him on a golf course we put them
on ATVs and it's been amazing
when we've tried to encourage
folks from back east to come out
here that ATV ride is something
that really intrigues them and so
we have been successful in
bringing some staff from other
organizations other congressional
members on the Democratic side.
For example, we tell them or not
going to convert them to be a
Republican. We just want them to
see what public lands is really
about and will give you an ATV
ride and then encourages them to
come out and we can talk more
about that a little experience
but no it's been really good that
way and I think if we can
continue to encourage that kind
of activity and have something to
bring folks out that is
attractive then I think that we
can bring people out here and
that's or working towards more
all the time.
Chad booth: well, this is been
most enlightening and in case
people are wondering what this
congressional ride is all about
that. The six County Association
has been engaged in were going to
tag along and were going to do
that when we come back on the
County seat.
Welcome back to the County Seat. Have
you even been in a conversation with
someone and you are trying to explain
something that you saw and finally in
exasperation you quip: "well you just had
to be there". That happens often when
you are trying to explain the effects of
government policy on a local community,
whether you are at the state capitol or in
Washington. So, to paint a better picture
to policy makers, a group of county
governments started taking state and
federal officials out to the problem just
so they could "be there". 22 years later
that effort is still paying off as we
discover in our "On the Ground"
segment.
We've invited our legislators back to visit our
county so we can show them our problems of
getting things done that we need done by the
legislators
Just for one of our guests we are four fifths the
size of Massachusetts,
Well we had a good ride to day about I don't
know 75 to 80 people on side by sides and 4
wheelers on the Fillmore loop on the Piute Trial.
I can tell you it's been a great chance to see
good part of our national forest and learn about
what we are going to have to do to protect our
forest here and to create more economic
development opportunities here in our real
counties.
The main empties behind the governors
Roadless rule petition is to get in and do active
management so we can have better watersheds
cleaner air coming through Spanish Fork this
morning you had to cut the air with a knife
My name is Zack George I am a legislative
assistant at the national association of counties,
I assist our lobbyist on environment energy and
land use issues and getting the opportunity to
come out here and really see some of the land
use issues up close and personal not being in
Washington DC and coming here and seeing it
in person has been an extraordinary experience
We brought them out here to show them our
land so that they know how 90% of our
property owned by the government affects us,
Well at an event like this you get a chance to
talk to a lot of commissioners and folks
responsible for the preservation of our natural
resources but one of the areas that was very
interesting was listening to someone who helps
manage a large ranch operation and grazing
cattle are one of the elements we can use to
fight wild fires.
I think a lot of that stuff could be avoided by
managing I think there are so many people out
there that have the wrong idea about cattle and
don't think they are a benefit
We had a great turn out today it's a good event
a lot of knowledge from different people that
we haven't talked to before it really helped us
to know where we stand and I think it helped
them to know where they stand with us, great
turn out
I think it's helpful to bring people here from the
Nation's Capital here we got congressmen here
we got members of the staff of people in
Washington , they need to see our public land
they need to understand what's going on our
public land they need to understand why it's so
important for us to thin the forest to be able to
graze on the land to have multiple use so that
people of Utah and the Country can take
advantage of these extraordinary resources,
and that's hard to do if your just sitting at a
desk in Washington, you imagine everything is
Bryce National Park well there are millions and
millions of acres that are more than just Bryce
National park and they need to be thoughtfully
managed and that's something that will
hopefully be better understood by the people in
DC as they come on outings like this.
The six county association of
governments, who oversees the annual
event tells us that they have played no
favorites in where to take these rides. By
the year 2020 each county in the group
will have hosted the event 3 times. The
largest group to show up was also in the
most remote location, at Notch Peak in
Millard County with 103 riders. We will
be right back with some closing thoughts.
Welcome back to the County Seat. It is
surprising how much direct interplay
there is between the federal government
and our Washington representatives and
the counties. Of course, most of the
attention goes to the policy side with
frequent trips to meet with congressional
delegations from our state and others.
But there have been frequent trips where
county officials have been needed to
smooth out regulatory bumps with the
different federal agencies whose
administrative regulations have direct
impact on life here at home. Often those
visits by your local officials are the most
important of all. Federal regulators in the
executive branch, never are held
accountable to the people they regulate
as they are not elected. Frequently, the
people making policy aren't even
appointees of the White House so there
is almost no accountability for the harm
their policies can and do bring to local
communities. The only way to address
this inequity is to have local governments
engage with regulators face to face. So
when your county commissioner flies to
Washington on business, don't assume
they are there for the free tours of the
Smithsonian, it has been our experience
that their agendas are filled with
meetings trying to make things better for
you at home. It is often easy to look at
the time out of the County Seat as county
funded fun, but the work they do is
necessary and important to keeping a far
and distant branch of government on the
same page as those of us here at home.
It has been my experience that counties
with leaders who choose to withdraw
from interacting with other counties, the
state and federal peeps on their own turf,
often lose the very contact and clout they
need to advance any agenda healthy to
the home team. That is my two cents
worth for today. Thanks for watching.
You can watch this again by visiting our
YouTube channel, going to Facebook or
our website. If you follow our social
media, you will be able to join the
conversation and stay abreast of things
happening across the state. We will see
you again next week, on the County Seat
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