ROBERT COSTA: A presidential order months ago upends Washington this week. I'm Robert Costa.
President Trump's handling of Robert Mueller's Russia probe once again front and center,
all as he makes his sales pitch to the world, tonight on Washington Week.
PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP: (From video.) I'm very excited.
ROBERT COSTA: President Trump's debut at a global summit is overshadowed by bombshell
reports that he demanded the firing of Special Counsel Robert Mueller.
PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP: (From video.) Fake news, folks. Fake news.
REPORTER: (From video.) What's your message today?
PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP: (From video.) Typical New York Times fake stories.
ROBERT COSTA: But one of the president's confidants, Newsmax CEO Chris Ruddy, told the
PBS NewsHour last June that Mr. Trump was actively considering firing Mueller.
CHRISTOPHER RUDDY: (From video.) I think he's considering perhaps terminating the
special counsel. I think he's weighing that option.
ROBERT COSTA: And there are new reports that at least 20 current and former White House
staffers have spoken with Mueller's team. It all comes as the Senate Intelligence Committee
prepares to release transcripts of interviews with Donald Trump, Jr. and Jared Kushner.
Some Republican critics of the Russia probe are raising questions about the integrity of
the FBI. The Democratic response to reports of a secret club of anti-Trump agents?
SENATE MINORITY LEADER CHARLES SCHUMER (D-NY): (From video.) Paranoia. Delusion. Why?
ROBERT COSTA: Plus, President Trump strikes a more inclusive tone on his "America first" doctrine.
PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP: (From video.) "America first" does not mean America alone.
ROBERT COSTA: We will get insights and analysis from Brian Bennett of The Los Angeles
Times, Ylan Mui of CNBC, Mark Mazzetti of The New York Times, Carol Leonnig of The
Washington Post, and Jake Sherman and Michael Crowley of POLITICO.
ANNOUNCER: Celebrating 50 years, this is Washington Week.
Once again, from Washington, moderator Robert Costa.
ROBERT COSTA: Good evening. New developments in the Russia story with multiple outlets
reporting that President Trump ordered the firing of Robert Mueller just weeks after he
was appointed special counsel. That revelation comes amid reports that Mueller's probe
has engaged with top officials in the White House and the Cabinet.
Twenty White House staffers have voluntarily talked with the special counsel.
He has also spoken with Attorney General Jeff Sessions, FBI Director Mike Pompeo - excuse
me - CIA Director Mike Pompeo, and former FBI Director James Comey, among others.
The New York Times broke that story, that President Trump ordered White House Counsel
Don McGahn to fire Mueller last June, based on what he perceived to be conflicts of
interest. McGahn refused and threatened to quit, insisting that firing Mueller would
cripple Trump's presidency and spark a crisis. Here's what the president said last
August when he was asked if he considered the dismissal.
PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP: (From video.) I haven't given it any thought. I mean, I've been
reading about it from you people. You say, oh, I'm going to dismiss him.
No, I'm not dismissing anybody. I mean, I want them to get on with the task.
ROBERT COSTA: White House Lawyer Ty Cobb responded with a brief statement: "We decline to
comment out of respect for the special counsel and its process."
Joining me now are investigative reporters Mark Mazzetti of The New York Times and Carol
Leonnig of The Washington Post. Mark, your colleagues Michael Schmidt and Maggie Haberman
broke the story this week about President Trump's demand. Just how far did he go?
And what are the implications for the Mueller probe?
MARK MAZZETTI: As they reported, the president pushed his White House counsel, Don
McGahn, last June to fire Special Counsel Robert Mueller, giving a number of reasons for
why he thought Mueller had a conflict of interest and couldn't oversee the probe.
But recall that this was the time that Mueller was - it was publicly being reported that
Mueller was directly focused on Trump in the investigation.
He was actually investigating possible obstruction of justice as part of his broad Russia
investigation. So it is - I think the timing is quite interesting.
And despite, you know, McGahn pushing back and not, ultimately, following through on what
the president wanted, it clearly shows the president's intent to get rid of Mueller and
concern, possibly, about what Mueller was doing.
ROBERT COSTA: Carol, that question of intent hovers over all of this. So what's next for
the White House Counsel Don McGahn, a confidant of the president? Should we expect him to
be asked to testify on Capitol Hill, to meet again with the Mueller team?
CAROL LEONNIG: I don't know if that testimony's the most central point.
There may be people who want to ask him that exact thing.
But what's more interesting is what he's already told Special Counsel Bob Mueller.
You may remember, Bob, you were there when we saw him enter the special counsel's office
for his interview. And it strikes me that what he's already told the federal
investigators looms large over the president as he faces his interview in the
coming two to three weeks, soon-to-be-scheduled interview. Did McGahn say the president
pressured me to fire someone and I threw down the gauntlet? How does - how does
Don McGahn, the White House counsel, describe that? That will be gripping testimony.
ROBERT COSTA: Carol, just a follow on that.
If you think about McGahn even going to meet with the Mueller team, is it unusual to have
this kind of cooperation from a White House that's under scrutiny?
CAROL LEONNIG: Well, I think it is unusual how many aides have volunteered for an interview
that are very, very much the inner circle of Donald Trump's White House.
Imagine the White House counsel being used as a witness against you on a case, whether
it's a charge or not, a case of obstruction. That's very striking.
But ultimately, the White House aides and advisers don't have a choice.
If Robert Mueller and his team want your cooperation, they'll either get it voluntarily
or they'll get it through a subpoena as evidenced by the one they served on senior
adviser - former senior adviser Steve Bannon when he declined to have an FBI interview
when agents visited his home earlier this month.
ROBERT COSTA: Mark, when we look at this incident, how does it fit into the broader
Mueller investigation with regard to possible obstruction of justice? Because the Mueller
investigation, as we know, was started about Russian interference in the election,
but now it seems the scope has broadened.
MARK MAZZETTI: Yeah. And it's always, I think, dangerous to try to read too much into
any one incident or thing that gets reported as signaling what Mueller is or is not doing.
But I think that what we've learned in the last couple of weeks about his interview of
Jeff Sessions, some other interviews, indicates that clearly he is focused as one part of
the investigation on a possible case of obstruction against the president.
We reported this week that he interviewed Sessions last week and was particularly
interested in the question of the firing of Comey and other matters that might play into
this overall category of obstruction of justice.
However, when you look at the Sessions testimony, of course, Sessions would be able to
speak to not only what the president did since taking office because Sessions was
attorney general, but he was also questioned about what happened during the campaign
because Sessions was a campaign adviser. And this goes to the other half of the Mueller
inquiry, which is, was there any collusion between Trump - the Trump campaign and the
Russians? And since Sessions was in so many of those meetings discussing these
topics, certainly Mueller wants to know about that as well.
ROBERT COSTA: Carol, what does this mean for that presidential interview you mentioned
that hasn't happened yet?
The president strolled down through the halls of the West Wing to his chief of staff's
office, General John Kelly, this week and said he'd be willing to meet with the Mueller
team, to do it under oath. Is that going to happen or not in light of all these events?
CAROL LEONNIG: The president's lawyers have told me that, you know, they're ultimately leaning
towards having their client, the first client, be interviewed by Bob Mueller's team, but
they'll make that decision as they negotiate the terms. They felt that the president
spoke sort of off the cuff and maybe a little prematurely by offering this interview.
I think that it will be fascinating because I wonder if really the president realizes
how many people have been interviewed that he's spoken to directly about some of these
instances, like his interest in firing Comey, his interest in Sessions stepping down or
being forced out, his interest in Mueller being removed. I wonder if he really has a
sense from his team or from his memory about how many times he's brought up these
things, because all of that information is now in the hands of Bob Mueller.
ROBERT COSTA: Mark, final read on where President Trump stands, is he leaning towards
sitting down with the Mueller team or is he going to fight back, as he told reporters this week?
MARK MAZZETTI: Well, I mean, I think it's fascinating, to Carol's point, that there's an
ongoing negotiation here. And clearly, his lawyers were worried about losing leverage in
the negotiation when the president just comes out and says it.
You know, take the president at his word and that he does want to talk to Mueller.
He thinks that he can - he can negotiate with Mueller or he can - he can give himself a
clean bill of health. But as Carol has pointed out, he has no sense of what has come
before him, what else people have testified to. And the biggest concern or one of the
biggest concerns of his lawyers would be perjury and that this is a perjury trap.
So, you know, the lawyers did try to walk it back a little bit.
I do think something certainly will happen, but this will be a bit of a back-and-forth.
ROBERT COSTA: Well, the president's also probably going to be paying attention to what's
published in The New York Times and The Washington Post.
What a war, what a great war for our country to have all this reporting this week.
Mark Mazzetti of The New York Times, Carol Leonnig of The Washington Post, thank you.
CAROL LEONNIG: Thanks, Bob. MARK MAZZETTI: Thank you.
ROBERT COSTA: Republicans have supported Mueller and his investigation saying he's an
honest man doing his duty. But this twist, it could raise questions about whether the
president was trying to fire him and whether Republicans will respond.
Jake, that's the question on Capitol Hill.
How do Republicans, who you cover every day in Congress, respond to this kind of news?
JAKE SHERMAN: They've said back - a little bit back and forth that they would pass
legislation to ensure that Mueller doesn't get canned.
Lindsey Graham - and these aren't - you know, these are people who are friendly with the
president, have said they want to protect Mueller, they want to protect the government,
they want to protect the investigation. They've not done so yet and we'll see if they
do. I think, as we all know, doing anything proactive in Washington is very rare.
ROBERT COSTA: Is there some Republican support that could grow in the coming days for
those bills to protect Mueller?
JAKE SHERMAN: That's a good question. Probably not.
I think it would be very difficult to get that through the House where you have a
conservative wing of the party that would like to see Mueller go and thinks that his
investigation is a sham and he's a quack. And that's a real dynamic.
You have some of these conservative Republicans, many in the House Freedom Caucus, who
are on TV pushing all sorts of conspiracy theories about Mueller and about the FBI and
about the investigative process in this country.
BRIAN BENNETT: I think that's exactly the thing that increases the stakes in the midterm
elections. If the Senate or the House flips in the midterm elections - and you know that
in the first elections after a new president is elected, oftentimes there's a wave
election - and so I know the Republicans are very nervous about that.
And if the Democrats gain control of one of the houses, then suddenly you've got
investigative committees and you've got momentum to try to pass legislation to do things,
like protect Mueller, like increase the powers of independent counsel or special counsel.
ROBERT COSTA: Could it even be more than that, Brian? Are the Democrats prepared if
they take the House? Because of the president's conduct, in their view, regardless
of what Mueller concludes, are they ready to move on something like impeachment?
BRIAN BENNETT: So the Democrats have tried to stay away from talking about impeachment.
They've held off right now. In fact, there are Democrats that don't want Tom Steyer
out there from California who's been doing ads on impeachment.
They don't want him out there right now, they want to try to keep the focus on the Russia
investigation and not take that next step because they don't think there's a political
advantage yet to talking about that. It's too early, it's not ripe.
But certainly, that's something in the back of their minds and certainly something that
they might bring up in a year or two.
ROBERT COSTA: Ylan, there's a policy question that overhangs all this discussion, too,
about Russian sanctions, U.S. sanctions on Russia.
Where does that stand amid all of the Mueller discussion?
YLAN MUI: Well, the Trump administration has tried to show that it is willing to take a
strong stand against Russia.
Just today, the Treasury Department issued sanctions against 30 officials and firms in
both Russia and Ukraine who had supported Russia's invasion of Crimea.
So that was a first step, but what everyone is really waiting for is the Treasury
Department to next week release a report that's supposed to pave the way for perhaps even
more onerous sanctions that would be targeted potentially against Russian officials,
against Russia's top business leaders.
And that would be the sanctions that are related to the bill that Congress had passed
back in August requiring the administration to pass sanctions on Russia because of
Russia's alleged interference in the 2016 elections.
Now, Russia says that these sanctions are absurd, that they're not working, in fact
their economy is growing. It's expected to grow about 3 percent next year.
So it's unclear exactly how much of a direct effect some of these sanctions will have and
how effective they will be in ensuring that Russia feels the economic pain that the U.S.
is hoping to impose to avoid a more direct political involvement.
ROBERT COSTA: Michael, you've been editing stories this week about House Intelligence
Committee Chairman Devin Nunes, Republican of California.
We've been talking about the clamor on the right about Mueller's credibility.
How far is he going to take this memo that he has yet to release?
MICHAEL CROWLEY: It looks like he's going to push it far.
To set the stage briefly, if you're following conservative media only, you might barely
even know that Trump threatened to or tried to fire Robert Mueller in June.
What you would really be following is the supposed real scandal, which is that the
Justice Department and FBI are tainted with anti-Trump bias and that officials there
basically let their supposed hatred for Trump poison the initial investigation which, you
know, through a chain of events has led to special counsel, Robert Mueller, including an
initial surveillance warrant that was issued against Carter Page, a Trump foreign policy
advisor. It's a complicated story.
But to boil it down, Republicans on the House Intelligence Committee, led by Devin
Nunes, have compiled this secret memo, which actually is locked in a secure facility in
the House, and they have - you have to go in and read it if you're a member of Congress -
that purports to expose how this bias launched the Russia investigation at the Justice
Department and the FBI.
So what Nunes and Republicans in the House want to do is release this memo to the public,
even though the Justice Department has said there would be terrible consequences.
I believe in a letter from a senior Justice Department official the word was "reckless" -
it would be reckless to put this out in part because it draws from classified
information. It could threaten sources and methods. If and when the House votes to
do this, they're likely to do it Wednesday of this coming week. Then it goes to
Donald Trump's desk, and Trump gets to decide whether or not to make the memo public.
And so you have the Justice Department saying don't do it, you have the House Republicans
saying please do it. Trump's son, Donald Jr., has tweeted 35 times at least, last time
we counted, on this one issue. Trump is going to be the decider.
It's going to be an explosive issue next week.
ROBERT COSTA: So that's all happening in the House, Jake. That's where you live in
Washington, covering the U.S. House.
We used to hear from those House Republicans when we were on the Hill together that if he
- the president ever fires Mueller, that's a red line. Is that still the case?
JAKE SHERMAN: No. But on this memo, this came up in the government funding debate.
Conservatives in the House Freedom Caucus pushed the speaker and the majority leader to
release the memo as a condition for their support for keeping the government open.
In the House it's not a red line, firing Mueller, at all.
And I really do think in the coming weeks and months there's going to be a flashpoint
here, and there's going to be some sort of movement toward the top of the party - the
Lindsey Grahams of the world, the Paul Ryans of the world - to pass something like this.
MICHAEL CROWLEY: I just want to add before we run out of time, it's really important to
note that Democrats call this memo misleading and a distortion of the underlying
intelligence, and they say that it does not show actual bias.
And it's just important that people understand the Democratic position is this is a
cynical stunt by Republicans to undermine the credibility of these Russia probes.
JAKE SHERMAN: And a lot of tension between Democrats and Republicans on the Intelligence
Committee because of this investigation.
ROBERT COSTA: So while that's all happening here at home, President Trump took his
"America first" message directly to the people he has cast as villains in his rise to
political power: banking titans, corporate bosses, and international leaders who have
spent years preaching the virtues of global integration. This week he showed up as a
president of a superpower, and to a standing-room-only crowd he made his sales pitch.
PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP: (From video.) The stock market is smashing one record after
another, and has added more than $7 trillion in new wealth since my election.
Consumer confidence, business confidence, and manufacturing confidence are the highest
they have been in many decades. America is open for business.
ROBERT COSTA: Many world leaders hear that "America first" message as one that promotes
isolationism and protectionism.
IRISH TAOISEACH LEO VARADKAR: (From video.) I think Davos in many ways represents that
view of the world that is about free trade, free enterprise, that takes the view that
globalization on balance is a good thing.
And to a certain extent, it seems that America is moving away from that path.
ROBERT COSTA: Let's discuss. Brian, is this a new President Trump? Is it the end of
Bannonism? Steve Bannon, the former strategist, articulated that nationalism inside of
the administration. Was this a different tune, a different tone?
BRIAN BENNETT: It was a different tone. He did bring his "America first" message.
And actually, I looked at Breitbart. Breitbart had actually pretty good reviews of
Trump's speech, which was very, very surprising. It seems like he walked the line.
He brought this message of we're going to - "America first," we're going to serve
self-interest, and other countries should serve their self-interest, but it was a
moderated tone. And he hasn't blown up any of the major trade deals yet.
You know, he's still playing footsie with NAFTA, for example, but hasn't made any big
impact on that. And I think his presence there reassured the people in Davos, in
the room. I mean, just a year before at Davos, the discussion was also about Trump.
He wasn't there, but a lot of the leaders there were really nervous that Trump was going
to really upset global markets and launch a trade war with a bunch of very serious trade
practices, and that hasn't happened yet. He's really just been nibbling around the
edges on those things, and I think actually his presence there kind of reassured the
people in the room that he wasn't going to do anything major to upset global markets
while at the same time projecting his "America first" message to his base.
ROBERT COSTA: Ylan, you're so plugged in with business leaders.
What did they make of it? And he was touting the U.S. stock market, of course,
but what's their broader view of all the policy implications Brian mentioned?
YLAN MUI: I think that this was really an opportunity for President Trump to play a role
he hasn't been able to play a while in the U.S., which is CEO in chief.
Ever since his business council here in America was disbanded, you haven't seen the
parade of corporate titans coming to the White House, you know, sitting around the
boardroom table as they were in Davos. And so that is a stage and a situation, I
think, that President Trump feels like it plays to his strengths.
And you're hearing a lot of optimism from the business community because the rhetoric
that he used during the campaign trail - that populist, isolationist rhetoric - has not
turned into reality. He did withdraw from TPP, but that was already dead. As you
mentioned, the - you know, he still is renegotiating NAFTA. And by and large, they're
very excited about tax cuts. You know, that's the president's biggest legislative
achievement, and it's something that big businesses are directly going to benefit from.
ROBERT COSTA: Michael?
MICHAEL CROWLEY: Well, you know, yes, you know, the rich are getting richer, and there's
a real irony. First of all, what's amazing is Donald Trump was never invited to
Davos before he was president, and for him this must be this wonderful vindication.
This is the kind of thing he lives for. They have to listen to me.
They have to suck up to me because I'm the most powerful man in the world now, and they
didn't want me before but now they kind of have to eat it.
ROBERT COSTA: He loved the moment. You could see it when he was walking around.
He loved it, the attention.
MICHAEL CROWLEY: That is just what he's all about. But at the same time, I'm sure
there is this burning insecurity inside of him about whether they really respect him.
And, you know, this will never end with Donald Trump.
ROBERT COSTA: Well, we're not psychologists here.
MICHAEL CROWLEY: OK. Fair enough. (Laughter.)
JAKE SHERMAN: You play one on TV.
MICHAEL CROWLEY: Yeah, we can play them on TV. But the - but the more important
point, I do think, is that he was, I would say, remarkably temperate.
And particularly - and, Brian, I think you touched on this - compared to the Trump of the
campaign, who, you know, was running ads about a global elite that was sort of out to get
the working man, here he is in Davos, he's feted, he's applauded, he's talking about how
everyone's getting rich and they can get richer.
It just seems like such a far cry from that Steve Bannon vision.
ROBERT COSTA: So, Ylan, what does - what does his base make of this?
YLAN MUI: Well, I think it's a little bit of a stick in the eye, right, because he's
able to still project that "America first" message, even though he added the phrase
"America first" but not America alone, and say, hey, even though I was elected on a
populist wave, we have a strong economy in the U.S., you know, looking at 3 percent
growth almost; stock market has reached record highs; unemployment rate is at a record
low of 4.1 percent. So even though all the things that you guys said last year were
going to - were going to happen when I was elected, they didn't come to pass, and in
fact America's economy is looking stronger than it did before.
ROBERT COSTA: And he doesn't act in this because of the stock market, on a lot of these
trade deals, because he fears the stock market would react poorly.
MICHAEL CROWLEY: Yeah, absolutely. And look - you know, and there's a lot of talk
about what's going to happen in the midterms and can Donald Trump get reelected.
The best thing any president could possibly have going for him is a strong economy,
falling unemployment rate. He has that wind at his back. He loves it. He knows it.
I expect a huge portion of his State of the Union speech next week is going to be about that.
ROBERT COSTA: Final thought.
BRIAN BENNETT: We did see a little bit of the real Donald Trump come out, the Donald
Trump from the campaign trail, at Davos. It wasn't in his remarks, which was temperate.
It was at the end, when he said the media was vicious and fake, and said the stock market -
MICHAEL CROWLEY: He got a boost for it, 50 percent.
ROBERT COSTA: We got it leave it there. Thanks, everybody, for being with us.
And stay tuned for that Washington Week Extra. We'll all hang around. That will be on
most PBS stations. And be sure to watch Judy Woodruff and the PBS NewsHour next
Tuesday for the State of the Union address. I'm Robert Costa. Thanks for joining us.
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