-What happens now moving forward in terms of, I mean,
first and foremost, these separated families?
Do you have any optimism that those 2,000 children
are gonna be reunited with their parents?
-I hold out optimism, if only because I think that
the public pressure has had some effect.
Perversely, as you mentioned at the top of the show,
there's now this, kind of, choice that's being offered,
which is, like, you can get your kid back
if you agree to be deported
and you renounce all your -- your claims to asylum.
So, I think a lot of people are gonna be deport--
reunited that way.
But it's going to take sustained public pressure.
I mean, what's very clear is, we broke a story a year ago
when they first started thinking about this policy.
And they thought about it
and they crafted internal procedures about it.
And someone leaked us documents, 'cause there was this --
-This is the separation policy. -Child separation policy.
People were so freaked out about it
and they cogitated about it for a year, and they implemented it.
They had no plan to reunite these families.
They had no plan, because they didn't care.
I mean, that's what, I think,
is so shocking about this whole thing.
-How did it go from -- I mean, so, 2017 you break this story.
Obviously, it takes, you know,
up to near a year to come through.
Were there people in the administration
who knew it would play like this?
-I think so. And I think the reason it didn't happen was,
precisely, because the experts who --
you know, there are people who work in
the Department of Homeland Security
and in the asylum office and things like this
who understand that you can't do this.
And I think they warned against it successfully.
I think the President in a fit of pique, recently,
has been ramped up about how, you know, stressed out he is
about the border. -Yeah.
-And the "invasion" and the "infestation"
that's coming over it,
and I think he managed to prevail on his advisers
against a lot of the better judgment of the civil servants
in those agencies to start doing this.
-So, then he signs an executive order, you know,
which ostensibly says,
"We're gonna get these families back together."
He says, you know, on television, he just couldn't --
it was too awful to have families be separated.
What do you think happened there for him
to ultimately reverse himself?
Although we are hearing whispers now
that he's saying he wishes he hadn't done that.
-I think the President sits in the White House
and watches cable news all day.
-Yeah. Good for you.
[ Laughter ]
-Good for us, maybe.
Bad for the country probably. -Yeah, yeah.
Probably not a -- probably not a ton of MSNBC.
-Yeah. [ Laughter ]
Although, yes.
Although he -- more than I think he would ever admit.
-Right, right. Yeah. -You know what I mean?
Like, there's times where it's very clear --
he does a lot of hate-watching.
-Yeah.
-Which, again, if you're hate-watching, cool.
-Yeah. [ Laughter ]
You know, whatever -- I don't judge.
-They all have to watch the commercials.
-Yeah, yeah. -Yeah.
-We make no discernment.
No, I mean, basically, I think he's sitting there
and he's watching himself take a beating on this
in public opinion and feels like he has to walk it back.
And I thought it was a significant moment
in the history of this administration
because we've seen him penned in before by the courts, you know,
when they came in against the travel ban or DACA.
We've seen him penned in by Congress when John McCain
gave the thumbs-down for ACA.
This was really the first time that I felt like civil society,
you know, in -- in a broad sense, basically, kind of,
stood up and said, "No, you can't do this."
-You mentioned civil society.
I will segue to civility.
That seems to be the conversation today.
It's a tricky thing to talk about, because I think we all,
you know, we all would expect to be treated civilly.
Like, we all want that.
How do you feel about right now Republicans saying
that there is now a lack of civility?
-I mean, look, I under-- I want to, like, acknowledge
what you're saying, which is I get people's impulse.
And I don't think it's a bad impulse to have of, like,
"Yeah, don't yell at people." Or, be, you know -- I get that.
That's a human and understandable part of
people's impulses around this stuff.
And, generally, I think that's a good guiding post for people.
I will say this that, look, Sarah Huckabee Sanders,
for example, is one of the most powerful people in the world.
And in a very real and tangible sense the defining feature of
a free society is that you can tell
one of the most powerful people in the world in your government,
"Get out of my restaurant."
-Right.
-Like, that's genuinely, like, a thing that makes a free society.
[ Applause ]
And, now, people could say, like, that --
I don't think they should do that or that's rude.
And I totally get people on either side of that.
But in a real deep sense, like,
hectoring, yelling at public officials?
I mean, I covered all the Tea Party town halls of 2009.
That was a festival of yelling at public officials.
And in the same way,
that's actually an important right to preserve.
So I think sometimes that this conversation about civility
can paper over a lot of what is actually just --
what politics looks like.
-And, you know, I feel, like, lost in this, obviously,
Sarah Huckabee Sanders, in her tweet, framed her --
she focused on her own politeness in politely leaving.
It does seem as though she was also politely asked to leave.
-Yes.
-Now, again, you know, at the end of the day,
I think if you're asked to leave a restaurant
you don't look back and go, "They were so nice about it."
[ Laughter ]
-They did -- They did comp them the cheese plate.
-Yes. That's no small thing.
-Yeah. -Yeah.
But, you know, and it did strike me as interesting that the woman
who owned the restaurant, she went and asked her staff.
She made it very clear that she had, you know,
she had an ethnic staff, she had a staff that were, you know --
gay people on her staff that made it difficult.
And she actually asked them their opinion, which --
-I thought it was, look, again, I feel like the basic --
my basic principles here are --
nonviolent action in dissent or in protest,
sort of across viewpoints,
is part of what American political life is about.
And, you know, that's -- [ Applause ]
That's like -- and I think --
And I think people feeling moral urgency about a 12-month-old
who is sitting in some facility a thousand miles away
from her mother, who's been torn away from her,
I think feeling some sense that, like, this is a crisis.
This is a moral crisis that requires me
to take some extra action, again,
within the sort of confines of, you know, what's protected
under law and our democratic, sort of, principles.
I think that that makes a lot of sense.
-It's always so great to have you here.
Thank you so much for making the time for us.
-Thank you, man. [ Cheers and applause ]
Chris Hayes, everybody.
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